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Football 2012-2013

Guest kaosmark2

By Guest kaosmark2
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eFestivals Mentor

eFestivals

Posted
Posted

Ah ok, so you weren't making comment on the point of the discussion then. Well done.

If someone is being successful abroad, surely that involves playing regularly?

If they're not playing regularly, they can't be considered to be of that much importance to the team, and therefore don't have a big part in the team's success, and therefore aren't much of a success themselves.

All I simply said was that if Macca was a success with a bit-part, then Owen cannot be excluded as a success either.

And so the list you gave with Macca included should be a hugely greater list.

Plus of course, you ignored 75% of the other names on the list

Oh, you think you have to be wrong on every count to be wrong do you? :lol:

and presumably now, by the absence of further comment, admit you were wrong regarding Platt.

Nope. I just can't be bothered to argue the point with you.

Some people are worth discussing things with, others are not.

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TheGayTent Enthusiast

TheGayTent

Posted
Posted

If someone is being successful abroad, surely that involves playing regularly?

If they're not playing regularly, they can't be considered to be of that much importance to the team, and therefore don't have a big part in the team's success, and therefore aren't much of a success themselves.

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thetime Mentor

thetime

Posted
Posted (edited)

Not sure I know where to start with that.

Firstly, it's not actually correct to say McManaman wasn't playing regularly. All you are doing is highlighting your lack of knowledge, particularly of Spanish football and Real Madrid.

McManaman was bought by Lorenzo Sanz. In his first season despite not playing for the manager that bought him, he was a regular in the side, scored in, and won the Champions League.

Proof that your comment about him not playing regularly was wrong. Proof too of his success. He achieved more in one season at Real Madrid than he ever got close to at Liverpool.

However, due to the unique (to us) way they are run, the following season Perez took over from Sanz, which changed matters for McManaman (and plenty of others).

New Presidents make promises in order to gain selection, and therefore once in, try to make those promises reality. Hence, as pointed out elsewhere the controversial arrival of Figo.

It is true to say McManaman wasn't playing every week, but then Real Madrid were early pioneers of the squad rotation policy now common at Premier League clubs, and I don't think anyone claims Rooney isn't a regular despite not playing or starting many of Man Utd's fixtures.

The guy scored against Barcelona in next years Champions League semi final. You hardly get game time in a fixture of that magnitude if you're a periphery figure not in the managers plans...or does scoring in a CL semi final not count as contributing towards the success of the team?

In summary, to dismiss McManaman's stint abroad as unsuccessful because he didn't play regularly is wide of the mark. Particularly without discussing manager/president changes, and the unusual (at the time) size and depth of the squad.

Edited by thetime
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eFestivals Mentor

eFestivals

Posted
Posted

Firstly, it's not actually correct to say McManaman wasn't playing regularly. All you are doing is highlighting your lack of knowledge, particularly of Spanish football and Real Madrid.

no, I'm miss-expressing myself.

He was not a first choice starter for the majority of his time there.

McManaman was bought by Lorenzo Sanz. In his first season despite not playing for the manager that bought him, he was a regular in the side, scored in, and won the Champions League.

Proof that your comment about him not playing regularly was wrong. Proof too of his success. He achieved more in one season at Real Madrid than he ever got close to at Liverpool.

whether a team wins the Chumps or not is as much the luck of a day of a match as anything else (tho it takes a decent team too of course), so winning the Chumps doesn't really prove anything about his success abroad or not. Neither does winning more at the club he moved to than the club he moved from (otherwise we could also say that Lampard & J.Cole weren't successful at WHU, and I know you wouldn't accept that).

In summary, to dismiss McManaman's stint abroad as unsuccessful because he didn't play regularly is wide of the mark.

I've not dismissed it as unsuccessful.

I've pointed out that if he's included than your list of successes should he hugely bigger than it was. Owen, for one example; he did nothing less than Macca (tho over a shorter time).

There's some UK players who have been undoubtedly successful abroad; Macca isn't one of them, unless your list is expanded to include many of those you've so far omitted.

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eFestivals Mentor

eFestivals

Posted
Posted

So you really had no point as I expected... Thanks for living up to expectations as always :)

do League Two teams field (on average) loads of kids who do not class as 'professionals' (because they're not on professional contracts) and who are being paid peanuts, or not? :rolleyes:

FFS, even Prem teams are doing the same thing on occasions. Rooney was, I think, on less than £40k a year for many of his early games for Everton.

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eFestivals Mentor

eFestivals

Posted
Posted

Ask a Man Utd supporter on their thoughts about whether Veron was a success or not. Then ask a Real Madrid supporter the same question of McManaman. Spot the difference.

One of the differences there is what normally gets called "a fan favourite".

Who becomes a fan favourite isn't necessarily to do with being successful with football on the pitch.

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pink_triangle Veteran

pink_triangle

Posted
Posted

whether a team wins the Chumps or not is as much the luck of a day of a match as anything else (tho it takes a decent team too of course), so winning the Chumps doesn't really prove anything about his success abroad or not. Neither does winning more at the club he moved to than the club he moved from (otherwise we could also say that Lampard & J.Cole weren't successful at WHU, and I know you wouldn't accept that).

I've pointed out that if he's included than your list of successes should he hugely bigger than it was. Owen, for one example; he did nothing less than Macca (tho over a shorter time).

There's some UK players who have been undoubtedly successful abroad; Macca isn't one of them, unless your list is expanded to include many of those you've so far omitted.

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TheGayTent Enthusiast

TheGayTent

Posted
Posted

The expansion of your initial comments shows whilst me may disagree some of the finer points, in general we're in agreement.

For example, I'm sure most Liverpool fans would see McManaman's spell at the club on an individual basis more of a success than a failure. Yet the same question asked of the team, particularly compared to the two decades prior to it, would be far less of a success (though I wouldn't mind a decade with "only" 2 successful domestic cup victories...!)

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eFestivals Mentor

eFestivals

Posted
Posted

Wrexham are in the league below league 2 and very rarely start someone from outside the professional group. The same is true for all our promotion rivals and was the same when we were in league 2. I honestly dont believe there are many at league 2 level playing for peanuts.

The likes of Aldershot certainly do, they use a lot of kids (not necessarily as starters).

When their record transfer is thought (it's undisclosed) to be just £50k (and the next nearest less than half that) and that player turned out to be a heap of trouble (was booted out the club), and many players they bring in are from non-league clubs, they're not spunking a similar amount on wages for those players.

I'd be surprised if the average for the likes of Aldershot is more than £25k.

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