House of lords reform

[pink_triangle]

Looks like the government heading for their first defeat. What are peoples opinions on this matter. I hated the hereditary system because of the huge conservative bias, the appointed system was a slight improvement in terms of eating away at the conservative bias but left it open for parties to reward loyalty or donations with a peerage.

I'm not sure the proposed system really solves the problems of the current one. Parties can still stick the donors or arse lickers to the top of the list and claim they have legitimacy. I also feel that it could result in an increased proportion of politicians with experts in other fields less likely to go through the election process. I also think the 15 years seems plucked from the air and wont increase accountability.

However in general if its moving towards democracy its a step in the right direction even if its pretty rubbish democracy, so if an mp I would probably support over the current system but look for a better system instead.

[eFestivals]

I absolutely hate the current system. It's nothing more than a pension plan, which is why all those tories are against it.

But I'm struggling to find anything better all the same. The "can't be removed" aspect gives the lords an independence from political masters which can only be a good thing (apart from the views they independently push, of course).

This reform is supposedly about 'democracy', but it's only democratic in voting to put someone there in the first place. There's no democratic accountability after that, because they still can't be removed, and the fact of a single term means they don't get rejected by the electorate on how they've sided with bills.

And of course, because the voting is by PR, it gets to mean that it ends up a place of brown-noising and patronage just as it is now - because political leaders will only put 'safe' candidates onto their party lists, meaning that the same people will be in the lords as would be put there by patronage.

I'd say the better way of doing things would be for the Commons to be voted for by PR, and the Lords by FPTP - because that way we'd have the law making chamber representing the views of the people within the country, and FPTP for the lords would allow the sort of personal independence that is needed by those within a reviewing chamber.

I'd say that Lords reform is one of the highest priority things which needs changing, because a bad system of govt leads to bad govt. The tory scumbags who say "there's an economic crisis which is much more important to sort out" are simply using that as a delaying tactic, to try to stop a change which they don't think should happen (because they're anti-democratic) - and they could always point at something and say it's a 'crisis' of more importance.

It's one of the highest priority things to sort out, but this proposed change will sort out nothing. It's a fudge that's happening because the commons refuses to allow itself to be reformed first, and if this goes thru it will ensure that this country continues to rot via the self interest that is currently the first priority of all politicians - because this change will be used as a reason to not change again anytime soon to something better.

Edited July 10, 2012 by eFestivals

[Purple Monkey]

The tory scumbags who say "there's an economic crisis which is much more important to sort out" are simply using that as a delaying tactic, to try to stop a change which they don't think should happen (because they're anti-democratic) - and they could always point at something and say it's a 'crisis' of more importance.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Purple Monkey

[eFestivals]

The idea of having a House of Lords at all in this day and age is a joke, what is this, the Dark Ages? (Don't answer that).

Yup. The UK likes to believe itself as the world's first democracy, but the existence of the lords gets to prove that the UK has never been a democracy.

Not only that, there's only two countries in the world that appoints clerics to its reviewing chamber - and that's the UK, and Iran. And the British govt loves to go on about how Iran isn't a democracy!!

[Purple Monkey]

Not only that, there's only two countries in the world that appoints clerics to its reviewing chamber - and that's the UK, and Iran. And the British govt loves to go on about how Iran isn't a democracy!!

Edited July 10, 2012 by Purple Monkey

[kaosmark2]

The proposed reforms are shit. The question as to whether they're worth going through depends on which will be used as a mandate to deny further reform. "Well we tried and rejected this one" or "Well we only recently implemented the change to this, give it time".

80% elected makes no sense. It's sheer retardation. Will this mean the elected ones have more authority and a greater mandate? Will it fuck.

15-year terms are meaningless. Not only is it a ridiculous length of time, but considering these are meant to be experts who've already had extended work in another field (and it's depressingly often being as a MP now), who's going to run for 2 terms? It still remains a nice little pension plan.

Everything about these reforms is total bollocks, it's not changing anything, it's making superficial changes while keeping the same crap that's fucking this country over the same. And I still reckon House of Lords reform is less important than reforming the electoral system for the House of Commons.

[eFestivals]

15-year terms are meaningless. Not only is it a ridiculous length of time, but considering these are meant to be experts who've already had extended work in another field (and it's depressingly often being as a MP now), who's going to run for 2 terms? It still remains a nice little pension plan.

it's defo still a nice little pension plan - probably one (I've not checked) that comes with an actual pension plan after a person's term at a stupidly high level which no 'normal' person gets - but what it doesn't allow is for anyone to stand for a 2nd term.

Which gets to mean that there's zero democratic accountability, which makes democratically elected members of that chamber a completely pointless idea.

Everything about these reforms is total bollocks, it's not changing anything, it's making superficial changes while keeping the same crap that's fucking this country over the same. And I still reckon House of Lords reform is less important than reforming the electoral system for the House of Commons.

This!!!

The only people who would be in the right place to reform the HoL's would be a reformed HoC's.

As it stands, it's the same as a bunch of criminals being put in charge of reforming the legal system.

[Purple Monkey]

What I'm constantly amazed at is how difficult it is to just sack them, just to get them out of the way, let alone be taken to the Hague to be charged with crimes against humanity (causing illness, poverty, starvation, seizure and corruption of basic public services, obfuscation of information, collusion, fraud and warmongering) like all the other self-serving world-leader scum.

Nothing like a discussion about rich fucks to get the blood boiling.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Purple Monkey

[feral chile]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-19149212

Plans to reform the House of Lords are being abandoned after Conservatives "broke the coalition contract", Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg says.

As a result, he said Lib Dem MPs could not now support Conservative-backed changes to parliamentary boundaries.

Edited August 6, 2012 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

From one angle I'm quite pleased the Lords reform isn't going ahead, cos the changes weren't great IMO. They could be improved a lot; it appears most care has been taken to try and ensure that Lords seats remain an MP's pension plan and retirement club.

It's great that Clegg will block the boundary changes. While some of the supposed reasons for those changes I agree with, the reality would have been daft with where boundary lines got drawn.

As for whether to coalition can survive this, I'm not sure either way. But there's probably enough stupid tory MPs who believe they'd win a majority if a general election was held tomorrow to cause the coalition to collapse.

If it does, what will be most funny will be Dave Moron trying to explain why he's having an election sooner than he'd said, particularly when his own party would be responsible for the coalition collapsing.

And what could be the rather surprising consequence from all this might be a re-establishment of Clegg's credibility in some people's eyes - cos an honest pragmatist will be viewed much better by the country at large than a dishonest 'man of principle'.

[feral chile]

From one angle I'm quite pleased the Lords reform isn't going ahead, cos the changes weren't great IMO. They could be improved a lot; it appears most care has been taken to try and ensure that Lords seats remain an MP's pension plan and retirement club.

It's great that Clegg will block the boundary changes. While some of the supposed reasons for those changes I agree with, the reality would have been daft with where boundary lines got drawn.

As for whether to coalition can survive this, I'm not sure either way. But there's probably enough stupid tory MPs who believe they'd win a majority if a general election was held tomorrow to cause the coalition to collapse.

If it does, what will be most funny will be Dave Moron trying to explain why he's having an election sooner than he'd said, particularly when his own party would be responsible for the coalition collapsing.

And what could be the rather surprising consequence from all this might be a re-establishment of Clegg's credibility in some people's eyes - cos an honest pragmatist will be viewed much better by the country at large than a dishonest 'man of principle'.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Louise Mensch has resigned today as well.

[eFestivals]

Louise Mensch has resigned today as well.

drugs messed up her brain, she said. Which is why she's been a tory MP.

Edited August 6, 2012 by eFestivals

[Rufus Gwertigan]

drugs messed up her brain, she said. Which is why she's been a tory MP.

[kaosmark2]

The Lords reforms were pretty disgraceful tbh.

I'm happier not getting the Lords reforms, particularly with them not going through tying into the Lib Dems blocking the boundary changes.

I think Clegg's got a huge way to go to regain credibility. The Lib Dems might be able to regain some, but there's too much damage done IMO.

[eFestivals]

I think Clegg's got a huge way to go to regain credibility. The Lib Dems might be able to regain some, but there's too much damage done IMO.

Oh, I agree.

But if Dave Moron makes a fool of himself over the handling of the collapse of the coalition and the need to call an early election - which might happen, I'm not saying it defo will - then Clegg stands a chance of coming out smelling of roses. It'll be the contrast between Clegg and Cameron which has good potential to rehabilitate Clegg in the minds of many I reckon.

I'm not really thinking that people will think him fantastic or anything like that. But I am thinking it might make enough difference so that some people who simply wouldn't vote LibDem today might be prepared to hold their nose and do it to help keep the tories out in some seats the tories will need to win.

I'm looking at things right thru to the end-game, with who would win an election. I still don't discount the tories winning unfortunately.

[kaosmark2]

Oh, I agree.

But if Dave Moron makes a fool of himself over the handling of the collapse of the coalition and the need to call an early election - which might happen, I'm not saying it defo will - then Clegg stands a chance of coming out smelling of roses. It'll be the contrast between Clegg and Cameron which has good potential to rehabilitate Clegg in the minds of many I reckon.

I'm not really thinking that people will think him fantastic or anything like that. But I am thinking it might make enough difference so that some people who simply wouldn't vote LibDem today might be prepared to hold their nose and do it to help keep the tories out in some seats the tories will need to win.

I'm looking at things right thru to the end-game, with who would win an election. I still don't discount the tories winning unfortunately.

[eFestivals]

And it's Clegg's "miserable little compromise" which is why we're definitely going to needing to consider tactical voting whenever the next election happens.

It's really not a great campaign to run though "Clegg, not quite as disgustingly slimy as the guy he partnered with."

Nope .... but (if things pan out towards an election as I've suggested above) he will have proven himself a loyal and straightforwards coalition partner, which I think will have a fair amount of importance when people think about the possibility of another coalition govt, but with the LibDems teamed with Labour.

How much weight that has with people I guess will depend how easily people get over the fact of him having to switch sides as he'd be doing if that came about.

[TalkShow Bob]

Hope those boundry changes really do go out the window. Trying to have the same MPs for the same amount of people could have only been thought up in London. Why not have every seat cover the same amount of land mass. Theres no way if you live in the sticks and you MP covers hundred of square miles you can have the same representation as someone whos MP only covers one or so in the middle of a city.

[pink_triangle]

I think our proposed changes would have put us in a constituency spanning 3 counties. A ridiculous idea based on self interest from the Torys, Im glad it looks like it will be shut down. Funny they often say how people on the doorsteps dont talk about lords reform, I guarnatee they dont discuss boundaries either.

[lost]

I guarnatee they dont discuss boundaries either.

[kaosmark2]

So Clegg has delivered next to nothing... Will go down in history as the man who destroyed the Dems... Why would anyone vote for them ?

[lost]

I still like Vince Cable, only politician to ask questions regarding the debt/housing bubble in Parliament before it went pop and a bit unlucky for admitting he wanted to fuck Murdoch over before it became cool to want to fuck Murdoch over after the hacking scandal broke.