Cash in hand morally wrong

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I think the difficulty they've had is to find a definition that stands up to the courts - it's pretty subjective - see my previous example.

[feral chile]

They use the hypothetical man on the Clapham omnibus in English Law where it is necessary to decide whether a party has acted in the way that a reasonable person should. This could / should also be used in tax law. There's a precedent for it's use there.

Edited July 24, 2012 by feral chile

[Spartacus Mars]

He's right though. Why should self employed people be allowed to avoid tax, when people employed under PAYE have no choice but to pay up?

[pink_triangle]

it certainly looks like they're on the way to a workable definition, based on the intention of the tax law in question. We'll just have to wait and see how robust the definition turns out to be.

[eFestivals]

He's right though. Why should self employed people be allowed to avoid tax, when people employed under PAYE have no choice but to pay up?

It's estimated to cost the UK £2b each year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18964640

He's not right. He said it was morally wrong to pay in cash - and yet cash is legal tender, unable to be refused as a payment method, but the main point is that the person who pays cash is not the tax avoider. That's done by the person who doesn't declare that cash as income.

But it's of course wrong that anyone avoids paying the taxes that are morally due from them.

Tho to put this in perspective, it's reckoned to be just 4% of the avoided tax. Vodaphone by themselves avoid paying as much in tax as all tradesman avoid together each year.

So .... known Labour supporter Jimmy Carr is morally wrong, and has been named and shamed; tradesmen who get their hands dirty and take cash payments - and might vote Labour - are morally wrong.

But no comment would be made by Dave Moron on Tory supporting tax-avoiding Gary Barlow, nor on bankers bonuses being morally wrong despite having been accrued by fraud, or even on Vodaphone, Philip Green, Boots the Chemist, Lord Ashcroft, and hundreds of other cases which would cause the tories some embarressment.

The tories even think it's right they they get to have the whole basis of their system of privilege - private schooling - free of tax, so that the 'common man' is paying to ensure he remains the 'common man'.

We need more moralising by politicians - the lack of it is a part of this country's problems. But we need the moralising to be well-placed, and not as political dogma as a cover-up for the same thing.

[eFestivals]

it seems to be related to the announcement that the government is closing tax loopholes - in order to target big businesses who exploit them.

Benefits - action was taken as soon as the tories took office to cut benefit payments.

Public Spending - action was taken as soon as the tories took office to cut public spending.

(state run) Schools - action was taken as soon as the tories took office to stop new buildings being built, and to introduce new forms of schooling which money is able to influence.

NHS - a complete reform, sprung on the country on the quiet, pushed thru against medical advice, and massively more opened up so that private companies can profit from the taxpayer's spend on healthcare.

All these things were urgent, and required immediate action.

Meanwhile, nothing has been done to reform the banks - the very cause of the financial crisis - and as things stand they'll be no changes until at least 2019 (when the banks hope people will have forgotten, so the changes get scrapped).

Meanwhile, nothing has been done to crack down on the tax evasion and tax avoidance of the rich, or of companies, even tho the taxes they avoid would deal with 'the structural deficit'.

I wonder why the first list required immediate attention, while the 2nd does not.

Edited July 25, 2012 by eFestivals

[Purple Monkey]

People like this are a bit like Gary Glitter popping up and saying that fiddling kids is morally wrong.

Targeting the most-taxed because they have found ways to somehow scrape by without having their inevitably-taxed-anyway-when-they-buy-shit-with-it earnings is morally wrong. If they're anything like my dad's friends they'll spend it on booze which gets taxed to buggery anyway. The money that this particular group of people make will be far more likely to end up being spent, and taxed, in the country - unlike the super rich who are far more likely to spend their ill-gotten gains elsewhere.

When will this madness fucking stop?

Fuck. This. Planet.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Purple Monkey

[eFestivals]

It's difficult with the big tax avoidance schemes though - if it boils down to cost, should the government go after tax avoiders if the court case costs more than the tax collected? And when it's a high risk case to start with?

hmrc only take 'winnable' cases to court, and in nearly every instance a single court case shuts down hundreds of tax avoidance schemes.

I say they only take 'winnable' cases to court, but they don't even do that sometimes - or if they win, they sometimes let the company off the tax anyway. Such as Vodaphone: £6Bn, and Goldman Sachs: £10M.

Does anyone know of anyone earning less than £40k who has had the taxman say to them "its ok, you don't have to pay the tax that is due"?

[eFestivals]

All self-employed people avoid tax. Poor people do it by cash in hand for small sums, richer people use the banking sector.

When I got a contracting IT job I was able to get an off-the-shelf Luxembourg shell company up and running for £75. After that the company I worked for hired this Luxembourg company, which I owned, and I employed myself through it. The company that set it up for me does nothing except these tax dodges.

Ever hear a Tory suggest they were morally wrong... or that they were going to do something about it?

So you're tax avoiding scum no different to the bankers and everyone else. YOU are the reason this country is fucked.

[windy_miller]

He's not right. He said it was morally wrong to pay in cash - and yet cash is legal tender, unable to be refused as a payment method, but the main point is that the person who pays cash is not the tax avoider. That's done by the person who doesn't declare that cash as income.

[Spartacus Mars]

So you're tax avoiding scum no different to the bankers and everyone else. YOU are the reason this country is fucked.

[kaosmark2]

For moral reasons, I decided not to pay tax than legally necessary after the invasion of Iraq.

[feral chile]

This. It is not up to me to ensure that a tradesman is paying his taxes. Anyway, how many tradesmen carry chip and pin machines round with them?

[Spartacus Mars]

Do you donate all the money you gain from tax avoidance to non-soldier war victims?

[feral chile]

Does anyone know of anyone earning less than £40k who has had the taxman say to them "its ok, you don't have to pay the tax that is due"?

Edited July 25, 2012 by feral chile

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I managed to channel the money to some of the neediest on earth, mainly in Latin America.

[lost]

Did you buy a shed load of coke?

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Hopefully hookers too so the UK economy at least got some of the cash. Incidentally a former boss of mine was on one of the schemes and still managed to be skint driving a 15 year old car due to the 5 figure sum he spend each month on these two consumables.

[Purple Monkey]

It's not what people choose to do with their money that is morally wrong.

It is money itself that is morally wrong. The concept of it, the division, destruction, deception, subjugation and manipulation it requires to merely exist creates every single evil on this planet. It's Satan incarnate.

It really is THE problem we have.

[kaosmark2]

It's Satan incarnate.

[feral chile]

It's not what people choose to do with their money that is morally wrong.

It is money itself that is morally wrong. The concept of it, the division, destruction, deception, subjugation and manipulation it requires to merely exist creates every single evil on this planet. It's Satan incarnate.

It really is THE problem we have.

Edited July 26, 2012 by feral chile

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Not really. Noone worships Satan any more.

[AcademicPistol]

If currency didn't exsist and we lived in an apocalyptic wasteland at least Jordan wouldn't exsist.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

If currency didn't exsist and we lived in an apocalyptic wasteland at least Jordan wouldn't exsist.

[Purple Monkey]

If currency didn't exsist and we lived in an apocalyptic wasteland at least Jordan wouldn't exsist.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Purple Monkey