Euthanasia and the Right to Die.

[feral chile]

Instead, psychology says it's not possible to make a rational decision to die, and yet it has no solid basis for such an argument, only guesswork.

Just because you might not wish to ever end your own life yourself does not mean that you have a right to say that others cannot if they wish; your basis for evaluations such as these is not the only basis there is.

Edited August 18, 2012 by feral chile

[worm]

was it you who brought up the idea that a 'will' to live or the survival instinct could be just a case of denial, or a lie? We put so much emphasis on living, with dying be THE only inevitability, who's to say that a choice to end your life is no more or less natural (accepting that, intellectually, we can and have overcome many of our original instincts)

[worm]

Instead, psychology says it's not possible to make a rational decision to die

[worm]

it has no solid basis for such an argument, only guesswork.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Slightly digressing but I do wonder that as our society changes will our attitude to suicide, assisted or otherwise? Will we be more tolerant? Given that many people who talk about a wish for suicide are serious, I often wonder what would happen if professionals could provide advice on methods. Would the suicide rate increase? This is all theoretical btw not something I strive for. However I think it is worth looking at the cultural differences of the West and Japan. In Japan suicide is still tolerated and ingrained in their society. A common method is to jump in front of a train. The train companies have been known to send a bill for damages to the next of kin.

[worm]

the reward is you choosing, or taking control of when the end comes. Choice is all we have.

[feral chile]

Yeah, I'd agree. So the issue is in assessing whether things can get better.

Back to the example of my friend, he's given up hope. But things can get better. He still has a future, just a different one. I'd argue that he's in shock or perhaps even denial. He's just part of a process at the moment.

It's very difficult to assess, which is probably why the law just bans it outright.

[worm]

Consider this:

You are not allowed to perform an operation on your body to remove your limbs. If you were to do so, you'd be committed. People would take it as a mark of insanity, or at least a deeply troubled mind that was a danger to itself.

Now think of how suicide compares to this. We are not free to do whatever we want to ourselves. The self is not sovereign. There are laws restricting our behaviour towards ourselves. And the institution of psychology is there to help explain why we have such self-harming behaviours.

Man, if someone were to self-harm, we'd be straight to a counsellor. If the person enjoyed it, then we'd be even more perturbed. Sadism and mashochism are rife. And the more extreme forms of this are restricted. If a person wants another to abuse them, we look at this with disdain and have laws restricting this behaviour.

Again, suicide is no different. Legitimise suicide and you open the door to all kinds of sado-masochistic behaviour.

Edited August 18, 2012 by worm

[worm]

Looking on the MS Society's website, they say sufferers tend to go through the grieving process. I don't know whether you've looked on there, it might be helpful for you.

Edited August 18, 2012 by worm

[feral chile]

Consider this:

You are not allowed to perform an operation on your body to remove your limbs. If you were to do so, you'd be committed. People would take it as a mark of insanity, or at least a deeply troubled mind that was a danger to itself.

Now think of how suicide compares to this. We are not free to do whatever we want to ourselves. The self is not sovereign. There are laws restricting our behaviour towards ourselves. And the institution of psychology is there to help explain why we have such self-harming behaviours.

Man, if someone were to self-harm, we'd be straight to a counsellor. If the person enjoyed it, then we'd be even more perturbed. Sadism and mashochism are rife. And the more extreme forms of this are restricted. If a person wants another to abuse them, we look at this with disdain and have laws restricting this behaviour.

Again, suicide is no different. Legitimise suicide and you open the door to all kinds of sado-masochistic behaviour.

[worm]

The other side of the argument is that, once the quality of life argument is accepted as valid for ending life, then this opens the doors for others to decide the fate of vulnerable individuals. If the self is sovereign, except when mentally incapable of making a rational decision, then those considered to have a low quality of life and unable to make their own decisions could have their lives ended by those responsible for them - power of attorneys, doctors etc.

Edited August 18, 2012 by worm

[feral chile]

Cheers feral, I have. I don't find it useful though. I have more knowledge than they can afford to give. It's for the layman, you see. It's been useful for understanding the physical aspects of the disease, but not the psychological.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

The other side of the argument is that, once the quality of life argument is accepted as valid for ending life, then this opens the doors for others to decide the fate of vulnerable individuals. If the self is sovereign, except when mentally incapable of making a rational decision, then those considered to have a low quality of life and unable to make their own decisions could have their lives ended by those responsible for them - power of attorneys, doctors etc.

[Purple Monkey]

We live in an irrational world. Irrational decisions are made all the time by everyone that can very easily have life changing and fatal consequences. While I see everyone's logic about this issue it doesn't hold up in the grand scheme of things. If we were truly compassionate we would let this man decide his own fate and help him achieve it, irrational or not. We let so many other irrational people get away with murder, so why not everyone? We have institutions based on truly bizarre logic and we do things on a grand, terrible scale with very little reason. This whole situation turns everyone into a bit of hypocrite. Just let him have what he wants.

Yes, allowing cases like this to become legal would potentially be open to systemic abuse, but all of our systems are open to abuse which ends lives unjustly in equal if not greater measure.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Purple Monkey

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I don't understand why wanting to kill yourself is evidence of not being of sound mind. What is the 'evidence' that Tony Nicklinson is not of sound mind? If I were him, I'd probably be at least considering the option

[worm]

I don't understand why wanting to kill yourself is evidence of not being of sound mind.

[worm]

so why are you worried about whether your friend is of sound mind (your terminology)?

Edited August 18, 2012 by worm

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Because he's not of sound mind. He's completely out of character.

[kaosmark2]

Slightly digressing but I do wonder that as our society changes will our attitude to suicide, assisted or otherwise? Will we be more tolerant? Given that many people who talk about a wish for suicide are serious, I often wonder what would happen if professionals could provide advice on methods. Would the suicide rate increase? This is all theoretical btw not something I strive for. However I think it is worth looking at the cultural differences of the West and Japan. In Japan suicide is still tolerated and ingrained in their society. A common method is to jump in front of a train. The train companies have been known to send a bill for damages to the next of kin.

[worm]

Out of character in comparison to what, normal life? You are looking at a very difficult situation that would change most people. I expect that it would be difficult not to change ones outlook. Just as an outsider looking in I wonder how much of this is your own issue rather than his.

[eFestivals]

I don't think we do. And neither should we. I think we constantly have to prove that our self is sovereign, when in fact it isn't.

I don't have to prove my sovereignty to anyone to prove I have it, tho if you'd like me to prove it to you I'll happy shit on your face.

[eFestivals]

Don't think it was. I don't believe in a 'survival instinct'. That is psychobabble, in the true sense of the term. As in, unqualified rhetoric pertaining to psychological drives.

PMSL - and yet all of psychology is unqualified* rhetoric to no less of an extent.

(* the only qualifying it has is to itself)

You can't have a will to die. There is no reward. It's aversion, not will. Suicide is the desire to no longer be the subject of a will.

Bullshit.

Suicide can be whatever is thought.

[eFestivals]

No it doesn't. You endlessly spout lies.

That's all anyone has. Including the person wanting to end their life. Better to have someone with some greater knowledge than someone who's in the throngs of an emotional state. In effect, the person would be murdering someone because they were 'out of their mind'.

Oh, so it's just your very own stupidity that you're spouting, which has no basis in (formal) psychology then? ;lol:

[worm]

I don't have to prove my sovereignty to anyone to prove I have it, tho if you'd like me to prove it to you I'll happy shit on your face.

Edited August 19, 2012 by worm

[worm]

PMSL - and yet all of psychology is unqualified* rhetoric to no less of an extent.

(* the only qualifying it has is to itself)