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Hillsborough Report

Guest Essex_George

By Guest Essex_George
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eFestivals Mentor

eFestivals

Posted
Posted

You guys can urinate in your thongs as much as you like, I'm going on the evidence before my eyes not assertions made otherwise. :)

I was an adult when Hillborough happened (far more of an adult than I am now, heh). I know fans were feared and loathed, and I know H&S culture has legislatively advanced in the meantime (I've done H&S training for industries). But it's also wrong afaik to suggest there was no legal duty of care by the police at the time. Any prosecutions of the police for negligence could only be brought under the applicable legislation of the time.

I remember Hillsborough, no way on earth was what happened there normal - even supposedly "for the time".

So you were an adult at the time. At what point do you do the adult thing and actually read what I've said, instead of making up your own wrong version of what I've not said? :rolleyes:

Yes, a prosecution should be made on the basis of the law at the time. But that's only one side of the consideration, because the consideration of guilt also has to be made in the basis of the law at the time.

If you'd like to tell me how anyone is able to transport themselves back in time those 23 years to make the consideration of guilt on the law at the time and not be influenced a single jot by the huge change in the relevant cultures since, then I'm all ears.

The simple fact is that NO ONE could disassociate themselves from that change in culture; everyone is immersed in current culture. It would be absolutely impossible to make any fair consideration of those people's guilt in the terms of ONLY the law and the context around it at that time.

The tragedy at Hillsboro on that day was not normal. The manner in which the fans were treated and the decisions were taken WAS normal (remember: a large part of what happened was off the back of the late arrival of fans. Without that part, it's quite possible nothing would have gone wrong). That's not me saying that anything about that 'norm' was right or good, just that it was there.

How is it justice for the old bill who were on duty that day to be tried in today's context for decisions made in the context of the ten or so years of fan violence prior to Hillsboro?

Prosecutions on that basis would not be justice but revenge. Justice for the 96 will never be gained by the imposition of an injustice onto others.

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eFestivals Mentor

eFestivals

Posted
Posted

Watching the commemorative ceremony before the Everton game last night made me well up - I wasn't expecting to get all emotional. Hats off to the one kid in a red shirt amongst a sea of Blue (glad to see he felt relaxed about it - that's how football should be).

there's been some fantastic cross-club support in the last few days, but I think they're all aware that it could have happened to them and not only the club it did happen to. It's a football issue, and not just a single-club one.

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Spartacus Mars Newbie

Spartacus Mars

Posted
Posted (edited)

If you'd like to tell me how anyone is able to transport themselves back in time those 23 years to make the consideration of guilt on the law at the time and not be influenced a single jot by the huge change in the relevant cultures since, then I'm all ears.

Edited by Spartacus Mars
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eFestivals Mentor

eFestivals

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That is the professional duty of the defence team, how they construct their arguments, which expert witnesses to call, all adjudicated by the judge.

and still warped.

Why is it the duty of the defence team to defend themselves from a warped prosecution? It's the prosecution's job to ensure that any prosecution takes place in conditions where justice can be achieved. The conditions in this case are outside of everyone's control.

The alternative is the degenerate position where a conspiracy of lies by the state and their officials can create an effective - though not legal - statute of limitations merely by adhering to the policy of omertà for the officials coupled with libelling of the victims. That's just can't be right.

OK, so you think that injustice is a price worth paying to not actually address any of the injustices of Hillsboro. That just makes you as bad as them. ;)

The chance to get at justice here is lost as a victim of the circumstances since, rather than via any default statute of limitations. Don't forget that many the huge changes that have happened since have happened as a direct result of Hillsboro - so while any true justice is impossible (because those lost lives cannot be restored) anyway, there's a justice in that their lives were not lost entirely in vain, because the chances of similar happening again have been lessened.

Just so it's clear, I think those involved in the cover-up should be pursued to court.

That's not a fact that's an opinion and one which casts doubt on the integrity of the jury system. It has been argued NO ONE, yes in capitals, can dissociate themselves from their backgrounds, racial or sectarian cultures, in judging each other. The alternative is what - we don't even bother to try?

yep, the jury system is defo seriously flawed for a case like this. For a start it's not possible to select a jury by age, so there could be people judging the accused who cannot possibly have a clue of the culture back then.

Yes fans arrived late, thanks to a series of unannounced roadworks. They were actually told not to arrive more than 15 minutes before the match, so not THAT late.

I've not read the recent report, so what I'm thinking might be wrong, but as far as I'm aware no one disputes that fans were arriving in big numbers just before kick-off time?

I'm not trying to put the blame on fans with my comment about arriving late - because the sure fateful cause was the decision to open the gate - but all of the circumstances of the day played their part in things which followed, and the gate might not have been opened without those late arrivals. It was a dreadful decision, but not done with the deliberate aim of causing anyone harm (and in fact was done for the exact opposite reason, to try and stop people coming to harm).

An argument for the defence team to make in court, not an argument not to go to court.

Nope. The CPS's job includes a consideration of whether a fair trial is possible.

But will be gained by the verdict of a just verdict onto the guilty.

As I've been saying, the changed context makes a just verdict impossible.

For the record, I also strongly believe the FA should face legal action. They sent and over-large crowd to a stadium without a safety certificate - and haven't breathed a word of explanation since.

and the council and old bill allowed the match to go ahead too when they shouldn't have done.

But it was individuals who made those decisions, not the organisations. And those individuals made those decisions in the context of the day, and not the context of today which you are judging them by. Nothing of their decisions were abnormal at the time, and it's the context of Hillsboro itself which causes those decisions to nowadays look unbelievably reckless, rather than the context of the time.

Edited by eFestivals
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eFestivals Mentor

eFestivals

Posted
Posted (edited)

Been away on Holiday while all this has kicked off...

I am only going off the fragments I have so far seen but am I not right in thinking we are learning nothing new...

We knew the police covered it up...

We knew the Sun where a set of c**ts...

As anything new actually come out ?

yep - the extent to which the police went to try and cover up their own failings by slurring the Liverpool fans with lies about what they did that day.

One of the lies the police put out - but which even news agencies couldn't believe, so it never got published until now - was that Liverpool fans were talking about (literally) fucking on the pitch some of the dead females which died that day.

As you know, I'm far from the first to have big trust in the police, but what was published in this new report goes waaaay beyond the worst I've ever thought of them.

It's also now thought that 41 of the people who died that day might have been saved if they'd been given medical treatment. The decisions of the police and ambulance services caused some of those who died to die unnecessarily.

Edited by eFestivals
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thesecretingredientiscrime Newbie

thesecretingredientiscrime

Posted
Posted

None of this was news to me though... This was all known...

Perhaps we now have the actual evidence but its all been widely reported... For example, the police being told to change their accounts or not write anything down was in the 90s Hillsborough TV documentary...

Be interesting to see where all this goes. For me its pointless, and something of a witch hunt, to go after individual officers who where forced to change their accounts etc... What would you do if you face possibly losing your job, pension etc...

Only ones worthy of going after are the top brass... but how you do that I am not sure. Was corporate manslaughter a viable charge back then ? I thought only recently the law was changed to make it a likely outcome ?

I certainly think there should be a new inquest looking beyond the stupid time limit originally set on peoples deaths...

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