Hillsborough Report

[TheGayTent]

Never understood the justice campaign. Had lots of people attempt to explain it and its never once made any sense.

No single person and no single organisation was at fault. Lots of separate small things combined unfortunately led to what happened.

For me, it was and is a tragic accident. No more no less. For sure, lessons should be learnt. But looking for a scapegoat?

[eFestivals]

Never understood the justice campaign. Had lots of people attempt to explain it and its never once made any sense.

No single person and no single organisation was at fault. Lots of separate small things combined unfortunately led to what happened.

For me, it was and is a tragic accident. No more no less. For sure, lessons should be learnt. But looking for a scapegoat?

I agree with you to a large extent - in the main it was a combination of unfortunate circumstances, plus some very bad decisions but which were made with the best intentions. I certainly don't think there's any benefit to be gained by looking to prosecute any copper for manslaughter (particularly when all that went on would be judged in today's standards and not the very different standards of the time).

But a big injustice was done to the fans there that day by the attempts to slander them with a concerted campaign of lies and the cover-up that was intended to create, and the people behind those lies should face court for the lies, and the statements they changed, etc.

[TheGayTent]

Don't hold the same viewpoint as your second paragraph. Just don't see what good it would do, and what purpose it would serve.

I don't think anything of note had been covered up. It still remains true, had their not been the fences, the crush wouldn't have happened. It still remains true that Duckenfield made some daft decisions on the day, but we all make mistakes at work. It still remains true, Duckenfield's superiors should never have appointed him in charge in the first place, he wasn't experienced enough. It still remains true, the H&S plan was out of date and the emergency access route no longer worked (following ground changes). It still remains true, without internal pens the crush wouldn't have happened. Etc etc

So many things had to happen for the crush to occur. Take one of them out and it wouldn't have occurred. Tragic accident.

For sure, covering your arse (or attempting to) after the event is wrong - but it doesn't make an individual or an organisation responsible for the tragedy. Punishing them publicly won't bring anyone back.

The important thing for me, is learning what went wrong, and stopping it reoccurring. Anything else is pointless.

[eFestivals]

Don't hold the same viewpoint as your second paragraph. Just don't see what good it would do, and what purpose it would serve.

if coppers are liars and allowed to get away with it, what good is any part the justice system? How could anyone trust anything about it?

That's the purpose it would serve. It would demonstrate to all the old bill that truth is always expected no matter how uncomfortable it might be, because without that from the old bill we can have no meaningful laws and no meaningful law and order.

It's probably the case that there's only a small handful of coppers with any part in the cover-up. I'm not thinking that the average copper who was there that day knew that their statements had been altered.

I don't think anything of note had been covered up.

The old bill changing witness statements is very much a cover up. It's also perverting the course of justice, about as big a crime as its possible to have within our legal system.

Imagine if they did the same thing in a case you were a part of. You might give a simple witness statement, and they might change it to say that you've fessed up to the crime. It's no different to what they did with Hillsboro, apart from in scope.

It still remains true, had their not been the fences, the crush wouldn't have happened. It still remains true that Duckenfield made some daft decisions on the day, but we all make mistakes at work. It still remains true, Duckenfield's superiors should never have appointed him in charge in the first place, he wasn't experienced enough. It still remains true, the H&S plan was out of date and the emergency access route no longer worked (following ground changes). It still remains true, without internal pens the crush wouldn't have happened. Etc etc

So many things had to happen for the crush to occur. Take one of them out and it wouldn't have occurred. Tragic accident.

yep - all of this I'm with you on.

But that is not all that happened. All of what happened has included a deliberate policy of lies, including changing witness statements.

For sure, covering your arse (or attempting to) after the event is wrong - but it doesn't make an individual or an organisation responsible for the tragedy. Punishing them publicly won't bring anyone back.

The important thing for me, is learning what went wrong, and stopping it reoccurring. Anything else is pointless.

The safety side of things is long-ago covered, and I agree, there's no point in going there again. What's happened has happened and can't be changed, but safety has now changed so similar shouldn't happen again.

But perverting the course of justice has not been dealt with, in any manner at all.

The angle you're taking here for that part is a bit daft. It would be much like saying that it would be OK for a copper to free the guy in Wales who's been arrested for that kid's murder because he's a mate of that copper. Who cares if the old bill are corrupt, eh, it doesn't matter to justice.

But of course it does. We might as well close the police force as allow them to be corrupt.

Edited October 5, 2012 by eFestivals

[strummer77]

For sure, covering your arse (or attempting to) after the event is wrong - but it doesn't make an individual or an organisation responsible for the tragedy. Punishing them publicly won't bring anyone back.

Edited October 5, 2012 by strummer77

[eFestivals]

A lot of people neglected their duties and responsibilities.

while that's strictly true, it was a different age. It's probably the case that the phrase 'duty of care' hadn't been invented back then (and if it had the idea it represents certainly hadn't penetrated thru-out public life). And so those "duties and responsibilities" didn't mean anything like they do today.

The same laxity that existed with stuff like safety licences at Hillsboro would have existed all-round because it was the culture of the time (here's betting that things like that lapsed for Anfield at times back then, for example). So it becomes more than a little unfair on those who were responsible for seeing such things were complied with at Hillsboro to be prosecuted while those who did the exact same thing elsewhere won't have the law come calling (and that's before getting into the fact that they'd be tried against today's safety culture, which didn't exist at the time).

It was an expensive lesson to learn - but it has been learnt, and that's the best that can come from it.

The police lies however are a completely different matter. Nothing about cover-ups has changed, everyone knew just how wrong they were then as they do today - and that part should be pursued, because the police need to be held to account when they lie, as a deterrent to it becoming widespread. If the police are allowed to lie, there's no purpose to the police.

[strummer77]

[eFestivals]

Oh I agree. The incident itself is awful but is nowhere near as sinister as what followed.

yup. The incident itself is awful, but at the end of the day it was a tragic accident due to a combination of unfortunate circumstances - and no one knew better at the time. And no one did what they did around the accident itself with deliberate harm as the purposeful outcome. It was tragic, it was a massive cock-up, but nothing of it was sinister.

What came after is something else entirely.

[Chimps in Balaclavas]

A schoolboy holds a leather ball

in a photograph on a bedroom wall

the bed is made, the curtains drawn

as silence greets the break of dawn.

The dusk gives way to morning light

revealing shades of red and white,

which hang from posters locked in time

of the Liverpool team of 89.

Upon a pale white quilted sheet

a football kit is folded neat

with a yellow scarf, trimmed with red

and some football boots beside the bed.

In hope, the room awakes each day

to see the boy who used to play

but once again it wakes alone

for this young boy’s not coming home.

Outside, the springtime fills the air

the smell of life is everywhere

viola’s bloom and tulips grow

while daffodils dance heel to toe.

These should have been such special times

for a boy who’d now be in his prime

but spring forever turned to grey

in the Yorkshire sun, one April day.

The clock was locked on 3.06

as sun shone down upon the pitch

lighting up faces etched in pain

as death descended on Leppings Lane.

Between the bars an arm is raised

amidst a human tidal wave

a young hand yearning to be saved

grows weak inside this deathly cage.

A boy not barely in his teens

is lost amongst the dying screams

a body too frail to fight for breath

is drowned below a sea of death

His outstretched arm then disappears

to signal twenty four years of tears

as 96 souls of those who fell

await the toll of the justice bell.

Ever since that disastrous day

a vision often comes my way

I reach and grab his outstretched arm

then pull him up away from harm.

We both embrace with tear-filled eyes

I then awake to realise

it’s the same old dream I have each week

as I quietly cry myself to sleep.

On April the 15th every year

when all is calm and skies are clear

beneath a glowing Yorkshire moon

a lone scots piper plays a tune.

The tune rings out the justice cause

then blows due west across the moors

it passes by the eternal flame

then engulfs a young boys picture frame.

His room is as it was that day

for twenty four years it’s stayed that way

untouched and frozen forever in time

since that tragic day in 89.

And as it plays its haunting sound

tears are heard from miles around

they’re tears from families of those who fell

awaiting the toll of the justice bell.

Dave Kirby

JFT96 GBNF YNWA

Edited April 15, 2013 by DAVA

[The Nal]

Bill Kenwright has just made a great speech.

"Next year, on the 25th anniversary, hopefully you'll be celebrating the best victory by any team ever"

"They took on the wrong city - and they took on the wrong Mums."

[Chimps in Balaclavas]

Bill Kenwright has just made a great speech.

"Next year, on the 25th anniversary, hopefully you'll be celebrating the best victory by any team ever"

"They took on the wrong city - and they took on the wrong Mums."

[Digi]

Bill Kenwright has just made a great speech.

"Next year, on the 25th anniversary, hopefully you'll be celebrating the best victory by any team ever"

"They took on the wrong city - and they took on the wrong Mums."

[Wooderson]

How shocking that you had such personal contact with the disaster Digi. I think people forget the impact that was felt by the city as a whole. The collective reaction of the city of Liverpool has been inspirational. I think that a generation has learned a lesson throughout this process.

The chants of "Merseyside! Merseyside!" yesterday were special. Its telling that it is the city as a whole that was always the target of the vile abuse.

http://tompride.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/thatcher-funeral-guest-bernard-ingham-accuses-hillsborough-relatives-of-being-contemptible/

[Loveboatcaptain]

I was working yesterday and havent yet been able to see the ceremony, i have it recorded so will hopefully get to see it tonight. I did however manage to see Kenwrights speech, it was fantastic to see the chairman of Everton speak so passionately about Hillsborough.

I have no direct connection to the disaster. Yes im a Liverpool fan and yes i've spoken to people who were there that day but I couldnt begin to imagine the pain they and there families have felt for the last 24 years. I can only hope that the report brings about proper justice that the families and everyone involved with the city deserves

[Digi]

How shocking that you had such personal contact with the disaster Digi. I think people forget the impact that was felt by the city as a whole. The collective reaction of the city of Liverpool has been inspirational. I think that a generation has learned a lesson throughout this process.

The chants of "Merseyside! Merseyside!" yesterday were special. Its telling that it is the city as a whole that was always the target of the vile abuse.

http://tompride.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/thatcher-funeral-guest-bernard-ingham-accuses-hillsborough-relatives-of-being-contemptible/