Would it be 'wrong' to choose to be gay?

[AcademicPistol]

what makes you think that?

[Guest]

Because if you are someone that can chose, then that must mean your attracted to both males and females, it's quite simple really.

[Guest]

I think the point is, whether being gay is a choice or not, it shouldn't be a choice that also includes being treated as different by society. And until gay relationships are recognised on an equal footing, to 'choose' (or to find yourself) gay and to express it, is to place yourself in an unequal position in society, with less rights than heterosexual people. I think Barry represents mainstream society in his comments, if the law reflects majority opinion, while society's willing to tolerate homosexuality, there's a way to go before it's considered on an equal and valid legal basis as heterosexuality.

I think the article is pointing out either, how brave you still have to be to come out, or that the author thinks it isn't a choice.

As he says, would you really risk non acceptance, violence, and a societal refusal to acknowledge your love through marriage, if you could choose otherwise?

Society is the one with a choice. society can choose to be even handed, and recognise the value of loving relationships, no matter what the gender of the partners involved.

[Guest]

I think the point is, whether being gay is a choice or not, it shouldn't be a choice that also includes being treated as different by society. And until gay relationships are recognised on an equal footing, to 'choose' (or to find yourself) gay and to express it, is to place yourself in an unequal position in society, with less rights than heterosexual people. I think Barry represents mainstream society in his comments, if the law reflects majority opinion, while society's willing to tolerate homosexuality, there's a way to go before it's considered on an equal and valid legal basis as heterosexuality.

Edited January 12, 2013 by tonyblair

[feral chile]

lots of people make choices that make their life less easy than if they didn't make those choices.

[feral chile]

I totally agree. And I would imagine that admitting it was a choice (to be gay) would infuriate those who don't understand it even more.

My curiosity, in essence, has nothing to do with the article (it just seemed to highlight the issue), and more to do with the possibility that a lot (most?...) of what we do and are, is a matter of choice. I could have been less persecuted when I was a teenager if I hadn't chosen to look like a hippy. As far as I'm aware, that was a choice I made. My best friend at the time decided to be a skin-head... it wasn't particularly traumatic.. getting chased down the road by skin heads and general ridicule, or well intentioned curiosity (why do want to look like a freak..?), that's all. It wasn't great, it was scary being chased by a gang who you knew just wanted to kick your head in

Interestingly enough, it was only after we moved to London that that all stopped. A lot of gay people I know often reflect how much differently they are treated when they venture away from large towns/cities

[Guest]

you're getting philosophical now. JP Sartre thinks that everything's a choice, and that failure to recognise this is bad faith.

if you unconsciously repress your sexuality, is that a choice?

people usually restrict the meaning of choice to refer to decisions that have positive outcomes. being gay has mixed ones - you can express your desire, but at a cost. Who was it that said we're free to choose what we want, but not free to choose to want it in the first place? Mill, I think.

[feral chile]

tony, if you're looking to explore the philosophical debate around free will, wiki has a useful secion here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

[feral chile]

doesn't that kind of contradict itself..? (I like it though... )

IF, it's being philosophical, then what if somehow we knew that everything was just choice, what a difference that would make

possibly...

(must read Sartre...)

[feral chile]

doesn't that kind of contradict itself..? (I like it though... )

IF, it's being philosophical, then what if somehow we knew that everything was just choice, what a difference that would make

possibly...

(must read Sartre...)

Edited January 12, 2013 by feral chile

[Guest]

It doesn't really contradict itself - it basically says we can't help what we're motivated by, we all want different things, and can then choose to get them, or avoid temptation. But the wanting and temptation is outside our control.

So we can't help what we feel.

cognitive behaviourists would disagree, of course. As would traditional behaviourists. Paradoxically, believing in conditioned behaviour allows you the freedom to change your schedules of reinforcement in order to change beliefs and behaviour patterns. In other words, what you can learn, you can unlearn/relearn differently. So at the centre of those most thought to believe in a deterministic theory of human mind and behaviour, lies a hidden faith in free will.

[feral chile]

so many paradoxes....

Edited January 12, 2013 by feral chile

[Guest]

Absolutely...

The older I get, the more everything seems to be a paradox. 'The more I learn, the less I know' seems to apply with alarming regularity too

[feral chile]

Absolutely...

The older I get, the more everything seems to be a paradox. 'The more I learn, the less I know' seems to apply with alarming regularity too

[abdoujaparov]

You'd like Sartre, but he's really difficult to get into. If you do a search on paul vincent spade and sartre, particularly on being and nothingness, it'll give you a more accessible introduction to him

[feral chile]

as long as you remember that Sartre wrote most of Being and Nothingness and Critique of Dialectical Reason while he was speeding his tits off you wont go far wrong

(I've read both - hard work - but have a soft spot for old JP)

[feral chile]

In my opinion marriage is just a thing that has been made up for the church to make money. It's pointless and so to say just for men and women is rubbish rules. Same sex relationships have existed since the beginning of time

Edited January 12, 2013 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

tony, if you're looking to explore the philosophical debate around free will, wiki has a useful secion here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

a debate that is completely meaningless until such time as we first know if we are *really* free to choose.

The whole idea that we're free to choose itself might be pre-programmed into us. It's impossible to know if it is or isn't.

[feral chile]

a debate that is completely meaningless until such time as we first know if we are *really* free to choose.

The whole idea that we're free to choose itself might be pre-programmed into us. It's impossible to know if it is or isn't.

Edited January 13, 2013 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

i don't think it matters if it's pre-programmed,

of course it does. If it's preprogrammed then there cannot be free-will, just a false belief that we have free will when we don't.

Just because someone believes their making a choice doesn't mean that they are. The only thing we can be sure about is the belief of a choice, not the freedom to make a choice itself.

[feral chile]

of course it does. If it's preprogrammed then there cannot be free-will, just a false belief that we have free will when we don't.

Just because someone believes their making a choice doesn't mean that they are. The only thing we can be sure about is the belief of a choice, not the freedom to make a choice itself.

Edited January 13, 2013 by feral chile

[feral chile]

For a healthy relationship I don't see marriage as needed. Just the whole idea of it. If I did get married I would not take his name or at least have a double barrel. Plus theres the cost of the wedding and the fact most people seem to get divorced. Why do we need a piece of paper and a ring on my finger to prove love. If you are already living together you are common law so that after a certain amount of time is similar rights etc

[feral chile]

of course it does. If it's preprogrammed then there cannot be free-will, just a false belief that we have free will when we don't.

Just because someone believes their making a choice doesn't mean that they are. The only thing we can be sure about is the belief of a choice, not the freedom to make a choice itself.

Edited January 13, 2013 by feral chile

[abdoujaparov]

If you are already living together you are common law so that after a certain amount of time is similar rights etc

[AcademicPistol]

I believe belief in free will IS free will.