You wake up and....

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I've also heard it referred to as a parasite.

By my GP, while discussing my pregnancy.

[feral chile]

Wow. I assume in some jokey way. Otherwise I think you may have seen a zoologist in error

Edited January 22, 2013 by feral chile

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I had severe morning sickness throughout the pregnancy, not even being able to drink water by the end, and lost dramatic amounts of weight - so his response was 'don't worry the baby's essentially a parasite - you'll die before it does'

He also described breast feeding in terms of how farmers milk cows.

We were definitely livestock to him

oh, and my midwife described my miscarriage as 'an anticlimax' and the consultant told me there was nothing special about the foetus (as in no particular reason for the miscarriage).

[eFestivals]

I still get very angry when I think in the casual nature with comments said about my ex's miscarriages. I was very young then and not assertive at all and I would react very differently now. Sometimes it seems the comments were with contempt, especially "Why are a couple so young wanting a baby anyway? Is it for a council house?"

without meaning to be rude or offensive, from what you've posted here over the years about that relationship, aside from the 'council house' bit, it sounds like that doctor was being more astute than you're giving him/her credit for.

Of course, anyone can have a baby, but that doesn't mean that everyone should. While I'm sure you wouldn't now change anything about the kids who resulted, perhaps if you had that time again with what you know now, decisions might not have been the same.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

without meaning to be rude or offensive, from what you've posted here over the years about that relationship, aside from the 'council house' bit, it sounds like that doctor was being more astute than you're giving him/her credit for.

Of course, anyone can have a baby, but that doesn't mean that everyone should. While I'm sure you wouldn't now change anything about the kids who resulted, perhaps if you had that time again with what you know now, decisions might not have been the same.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Rufus Gwertigan

[feral chile]

It dies come over ad offensive and no I would not say the nurse was been astute. Yes of course everyone can think again with the benefit of hindsight but at the time we were a couple in a stable relationship with stable employment. However it is hardly a comment that you say to someone when your wife has just lost a child.

[eFestivals]

It dies come over ad offensive and no I would not say the nurse was been astute. Yes of course everyone can think again with the benefit of hindsight but at the time we were a couple in a stable relationship with stable employment. However it is hardly a comment that you say to someone when your wife has just lost a child.

I certainly agree that it was beyond being a stupid comment by that nurse given that situation at the time. I've been thru similar (without similar comments from medical staff) so I certainly understand how insensitive those comments were in that situation.

It wasn't meant as offensive, just as fair comment on what you've presented in that post and in many others over the years. I can only go on the bits you've presented tho, and I recognise that won't be all.

And (this isn't necessarily about your situation, so don't take it as that) a stable relationship with stable employment isn't all that matters for parenting/child rearing, and it's certainly the case that some people do make the wrong choices and perhaps need someone to say it to them straight - tho perhaps they wouldn't take that advice no matter how well it's put to them. But if those people did there'd be less damaged children around, and that wouldn't be a bad thing for those children and wider society.

(that's worded terribly, it sounds like a recommendation for retrospective abortion .... that's not what i'm meaning. If there's no child conceived in the first place, then there's no child effected by that non-conception [hopefully that puts a better context to what i'm saying]).

[Ruwise]

This is a bit of a pointless experiment in my point of view because it doesn't really reveal your views on abortion.

I don't want kids and so am quite fastidious about birth control and always have been. I have never even had a scare where I even thought I might be pregnant. I do this because whilst I am pro-choice I don't know if I would be personally be able to have an abortion.

That being said I would never judge somebody else's choice and wouldn't presume that everybody should or would be able to behave as I do.

Also the answer to a question like this can be very flippant people can say yes or no in a heartbeat as they know it won't happen. I think the fact that so few people are on bone marrow registers shows that people aren't really inclined to be inconvenienced for other people who are already alive.

[eFestivals]

I think the fact that so few people are on bone marrow registers shows that people aren't really inclined to be inconvenienced for other people who are already alive.

This ^^

I laughed out loud at some of nightcrawlers posts, with him saying he didn't think he could be responsible for the death of another human being - cos we're all doing that all the time to some extent.

Ultimately, there's a massive difference between directly *causing* someone's death, and failing to act to stop someone's death. If nightcrawler's statements held true for anyone then the only activity they'd be involved in is the healthcare of others for their every waking minute.

[AcademicPistol]

Ultimately, there's a massive difference between directly *causing* someone's death, and failing to act to stop someone's death. If nightcrawler's statements held true for anyone then the only activity they'd be involved in is the healthcare of others for their every waking minute.

[feral chile]

There is also a difference between wanting to save as many lives as possible by working in the healthcare profession and being the only person that can save a certain life (as per nightcrawlers question).

There are already loads of healthcare professionals. I could be one if I had the training but if I was the only one who could save someone's life, I would feel guilty if I let them die.

So would everyone who said they would let the stranger die (Dalai Lama or not), not pull someone out of a burning building? Would you not help a fallen stranger off of railway tracks?

[eFestivals]

I would feel guilty if I let them die.

you are not "letting them die".

They are dying. Everything about that is to do with them, no matter how unfortunate that is for them. It's a fact of life, something which cannot not happen eventually, no matter what you might do.

So would everyone who said they would let the stranger die (Dalai Lama or not), not pull someone out of a burning building? Would you not help a fallen stranger off of railway tracks?

I would not expect someone to give up their life to give me mine.

That's all there is to it really.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

There is also a difference between wanting to save as many lives as possible by working in the healthcare profession and being the only person that can save a certain life (as per nightcrawlers question).

There are already loads of healthcare professionals. I could be one if I had the training but if I was the only one who could save someone's life, I would feel guilty if I let them die.

So would everyone who said they would let the stranger die (Dalai Lama or not), not pull someone out of a burning building? Would you not help a fallen stranger off of railway tracks?

[nightcrawler13]

This is a bit of a pointless experiment in my point of view because it doesn't really reveal your views on abortion.

Edited January 22, 2013 by nightcrawler13

[Rufus Gwertigan]

The point of this wasn't for your views on abortion, but as to WHY you have that view. This has been way more useful than I expected it to be as I assumed it would die after the first page of everyone pooh-poohing (did you know that's actually in the dictionary?! ) the question. But thanks to a couple people in here with comments beyond "the question is dumb" I've got to see a lot more exploration as to WHY people hold their views

you need to get out more Neil

yes, you are

if the situation was that I had been attached to your girlfriend, and only had to let her stay attached to me for an hour, and I refused and she died, you would most likely have some unhappy emotion towards me for 'letting her die'

so if we extend the time beyond an hour, then i am still 'letting her die' except now there is more of a reason to do so, that being my inconvenience

and if you think it's okay for her to die instead of myself being inconvenienced, then wow, worst boyfriend everrrrrrr

Good on you! Maybe I'm just a soppy, overly empathetic part-time buddhist but I'd feel too guilty in that situation to allow it to happen

I couldn't let the violinist, Dalai Lama, bus driver, forum moderators girlfriend die, because even if I was inconvenienced for nine months I know I would spend the rest of life with guilt if I made the decision to remove them

this is why I have upmost respect for someone who makes the decision to have an abortion, because I believe someone has the right to make that decision, but it is not what I feel I could make.

However, people's minds think in different ways. I couldn't make that decision because I overthink everything (hence studying PPE) and play out the long term results in my mind, so even though it is just a few reproducing cells at the moment, gone in a flash, I think out a potential life for it.

If a person is able to ignore that thought process, than fair enough and make whatever decision they feel right. This is why I think pro-life people are scum, because they believe their thought process to be FACT, and they are then able to abuse and taunt these people who have had to make incredibly hard choices all ready

the people who have been arguing that the question is dumb or doesn't make sense are missing the entire point, philosophical thought experiments ARE dumb. The violinist wouldn't need to be attached to YOU, Schrodinger's cat is dead and pushing the fat guy in front of the moving cart is horrific no matter how many lives you save.... but the point is it makes you think as to WHY you think the way you do, so stop being so banal and just run with it

[Ruwise]

I think you might be slightly missing my point. The scenario you mention is not comparable to pregnancy in any shape or form and so it misses the point of what it is trying to make you think about.

When somebody get pregnant it is a potential situation that impacts on far more people than just them and the baby. It changes relationships with a myriad of people. It changes their whole place in society at times. Also, saying somebody could just have the baby and put it up for adoption is over simplifying it as well. My brother is in the process of adopting a little boy. He was given up at birth but it took him 20 months to be placed with them. He already has issues with food and scares more than any other toddler I have ever come across which we can only put down to the fact that his foster carer was not great. My brother was told when they took him by their social worker that they were very lucky they agreed to take him because otherwise he would have been looking at a life in care as he was not an attractive prospect for potential adoptive parents.

My problem with experiments like this is that it seems set up to demonise people who have abortions as though they are people who take the easy way out. Actually, I think it sometimes takes great courage to admit you are not in the best position to look after another life.

I look around and see how badly neglected some children are and wonder if the stigma around abortion were removed might we not have a better society where those who people who have children are doing it for the right reasons because they want to lovingly raise a child.

I did not have a good mother and she often through the I gave birth to you line as a reason why I should be forever grateful to her. I always pointed out that people don't ask to be born and if I never had been born I wouldn't know any different. The world wouldn't have stopped turning.

I hope if you are writing any essay on this that you would use my constructive criticism of the question just to show that it is not comparing like with like.

[eFestivals]

yes, you are

if the situation was that I had been attached to your girlfriend, and only had to let her stay attached to me for an hour, and I refused and she died, you would most likely have some unhappy emotion towards me for 'letting her die'

I might, but that would be emotional irrationalism and not anything sensible.

No person can be responsible for anything beyond themselves, tho lots of people like to pretend that they are.

[Guest]

The point of this wasn't for your views on abortion, but as to WHY you have that view. This has been way more useful than I expected it to be as I assumed it would die after the first page of everyone pooh-poohing (did you know that's actually in the dictionary?! ) the question. But thanks to a couple people in here with comments beyond "the question is dumb" I've got to see a lot more exploration as to WHY people hold their views

you need to get out more Neil

yes, you are

if the situation was that I had been attached to your girlfriend, and only had to let her stay attached to me for an hour, and I refused and she died, you would most likely have some unhappy emotion towards me for 'letting her die'

so if we extend the time beyond an hour, then i am still 'letting her die' except now there is more of a reason to do so, that being my inconvenience

and if you think it's okay for her to die instead of myself being inconvenienced, then wow, worst boyfriend everrrrrrr

Good on you! Maybe I'm just a soppy, overly empathetic part-time buddhist but I'd feel too guilty in that situation to allow it to happen

I couldn't let the violinist, Dalai Lama, bus driver, forum moderators girlfriend die, because even if I was inconvenienced for nine months I know I would spend the rest of life with guilt if I made the decision to remove them

this is why I have upmost respect for someone who makes the decision to have an abortion, because I believe someone has the right to make that decision, but it is not what I feel I could make.

However, people's minds think in different ways. I couldn't make that decision because I overthink everything (hence studying PPE) and play out the long term results in my mind, so even though it is just a few reproducing cells at the moment, gone in a flash, I think out a potential life for it.

If a person is able to ignore that thought process, than fair enough and make whatever decision they feel right. This is why I think pro-life people are scum, because they believe their thought process to be FACT, and they are then able to abuse and taunt these people who have had to make incredibly hard choices all ready

the people who have been arguing that the question is dumb or doesn't make sense are missing the entire point, philosophical thought experiments ARE dumb. The violinist wouldn't need to be attached to YOU, Schrodinger's cat is dead and pushing the fat guy in front of the moving cart is horrific no matter how many lives you save.... but the point is it makes you think as to WHY you think the way you do, so stop being so banal and just run with it

[mrtourette]

This is a bit of a pointless experiment in my point of view because it doesn't really reveal your views on abortion.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I think that maybe Nightcrawler needs to read a little about the exercise as I think he nay have missed the point. If it is not related to abortion why us it mentioned?

Given that thought exercises like this are designed for a seminar setting and for discussion I guess it does show some of the negative aspects of the OU.

[nightcrawler13]

I think that maybe Nightcrawler needs to read a little about the exercise as I think he nay have missed the point. If it is not related to abortion why us it mentioned?

Given that thought exercises like this are designed for a seminar setting and for discussion I guess it does show some of the negative aspects of the OU.

Edited January 23, 2013 by nightcrawler13

[feral chile]

it is about abortion

my essay is about whether this thought experiment works, which of course it doesn't really fulfill it's entire purpose I've been poking this along to get people to tell me why it's bad, it seems I've got as much as I'll be getting

so thank you one and all, I owe you 1/6th of this years grade

[nightcrawler13]

Oh, in that case:

Pros:

Points out difference between right to life and right to have that life sustained by another person.

Compares scenarios based on viability. (both would survive with biological dependence)

Cons:

Ignores the emotional aspect of pregnancy, both during and afterwards. Abortion is carried out for a reason: sometimes the emotional aftermath of a pregnancy would be judged too destructive to be allowed to continue (obvious examples rape, incest, affairs). Carrying around the adult for 9 months shouldn't have such negative consequences. The other side of abortion is the sense of loss and guilt, which I'd suppose wouldn't be so pronounced in the adult scenario.

The sense of obligation can't be compared - the adult scenario is pretty abstract, and would be measured against real life obligations to work and family etc. The abortion scenario has conflicting obligations.

You might ruin your life going ahead with a pregnancy. You wouldn't ruin your life carrying around an adult for 9 months, though people might get really irritated by the inconvenience.

Both presume the dependent is a person, though it's up to you to decide whether that's a pro or con.