The final push is starting... get rid of those pesky poor people

[lost]

Of course I dont think it's fair that Lost cannot live where he wants. But markets have got nothing to do with fairness. That's why I'm not a fan of capitalism.

But whether or not Lost feels aggrieved because he cannot live in Camden is not justification for shipping 700 families to Liverpool and beyond. Two wrongs and all that...

[abdoujaparov]

The bit you either missed, or yet again purposely ignored, is the role the government played by paying these over paid rents for so long in stopping Lost from living their.

And you missed out the second question which ties in.

If you have less housing than people wanting to live in an area. No system will fairly hand those houses as whats fair is so subjective anyway.

You shouldn't really ignore peoples comments. It just wastes a lot more time in you actually realising the full problem and not the subset of the problem you want to use for your own dogmatic purposes

[abdoujaparov]

You think housing is a free market? I can't buy an acre of farm land for £3k tomorrow which seems to be about the going rate and then build my own house on it for £50 - £60k

[mrtourette]

I think the Liverpool thing is a red herring, I believe the woman doesn't have to accept the offer and looking at the new housing benefit limits there are plenty of places in outer London she could rent just not zone 1. You have to watch it with the Guardian its turned into a left wing daily mail where the story will have to be sensational as possible to foster outrage within its readers.

[eFestivals]

You think housing is a free market?

As I've pointed out many many times over the years, it's not. The govt control the price of housing via the amount of land they release for house-building.

Currently we have a problem of houses costing far too much, it's at the very heart of all the current economic problems. What are the govt doing with their control? The short and easy answer is: a very long way from enough.

Instead successive govts have been happy to pay over an ever-increasing amount to private landlords.

There are alternatives, if any govt has the balls to do it, and the electorate are smart enough to allow it.

And the electorate just aren't that smart, as the comments in this thread get to show.

[eFestivals]

What would be an effective way ?

building houses on that field which is the nice view from your house.

Not houses for anyone from the mildly comfortable upwards.

Does it have your support?

[mrtourette]

fake outrage?? at what is a kind of social culling? so what if it's been going on for years, this is taking it to a new level.

[abdoujaparov]

The lady in the article is paying out... £340 a week... £1473 a month for a two bedroom flat. You don't think that is high ? Maybe not in London, but this is the reason we are having this discussion about Londoners and not people in Liverpool, but it is in most other places.

The council is paying out £600 a month more in rent than I pay on my house! For a flat! Your suggestion it isn't high is funny to say the least.

The second part is a given.... If you want to accept it or not... The demand for housing in London is high and I would imagine it is no less high in Camden. Hence the high rents... But I won't be surprised if those high rates are partly being held up by the government over paying.

Its either demand or over payment by government. If their is no demand then rents will fall.

[abdoujaparov]

Problem is... Some people on here think its unfair for people to move into the houses once built!!! Because its cruel they might not be able to live in Zone 1 London

[eFestivals]

Yes...

I have a trainline round the back and not much of a view at the front... Unless you include the power station in the distance...

We have tons of land around this area. Some of it is being used for more houses. Don't see why much of the rest shouldn't...

Problem is... Some people on here think its unfair for people to move into the houses once built!!! Because its cruel they might not be able to live in Zone 1 London

because there's not a lot of spare land for building around london, it might be that there's no realistic short or mid-term solution to the London problem, but that the housing benefit amount-paid-out problem can be alleviated in the short term by cutting the housing benefit paid out wastefully elsewhere.

If nothing else there should be a massive public house building programme - and I say "public" and not "social" very deliberately. Paying out a lot in housing benefit is looking like an unsolvable problem because there'll always be a big number of employed, unemployed, disabled, pensioners, and others claiming it while we stick to this current fucked up economic system .... so we might as well pay out that benefit as tax-payers and receive it back in rent. It's a far better idea than paying it out never to be seen again by the taxpayer.

[abdoujaparov]

I was going to say such as ? but then realised I would just get the same old generic list of...

Trident

Tax the rich

etc

[TheGayTent]

Just look at what's happened to East London.

[abdoujaparov]

Having some principles is fine but you then have to put them to the reality of the world.

Yeah lets tax the rich!!!! First you have to work out who the rich are... and then when you find out the only ones who are really getting away with it either don't live here or their companies don't... Cough Tax Havens Cough... So straight away our governments ability to act is compromised even if we didn't have a bunch of twats running the country. Unless we go all little Britain which again has issues.

I wouldn't much mind Neil communist utopia he often paints. Its not going to happen though so we can only ever operate in the confides of the reality we have. Pissing and moaning constantly isn't really helping.

Would be nice if we could all live where we wanted but its simply isn't possible.

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

In other words I question whether some people are actually as upset about this or whether they actually like the idea of appearing to be upset about it.

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

What about it? Nothing has changed in East London since the the city was born.

Edited February 15, 2013 by thesecretingredientiscrime

[Guest]

Yes, fake outrage. Obviously this is a discussion forum and discusiion is great, but the credibility of some is severely compromised by the obvious desire to serve up some prepared half-arsed sub-primary school level anti-Thatcher cod-sociology to anyone who'll listen at any available opportunity. In other words I question whether some people are actually as upset about this or whether they actually like the idea of appearing to be upset about it.

[Guest]

Yes...

I have a trainline round the back and not much of a view at the front... Unless you include the power station in the distance...

We have tons of land around this area. Some of it is being used for more houses. Don't see why much of the rest shouldn't...

Problem is... Some people on here think its unfair for people to move into the houses once built!!! Because its cruel they might not be able to live in Zone 1 London

[abdoujaparov]

You have a point about Trident... The aircraft carrier thing is just the usual government fuck up. They really must have the B team when it comes to recruitment given the number of fuck ups. Those type of fuck ups will always happen.

You can get some more money from the rich certainly... Put it all together no doubt it will give a short term boost.... Its not going to radically change much is it.

[eFestivals]

What about it? Nothing has changed in East London since the the city was born.

has anything changed since victorian times?

[lost]

As far as I can remember the aircraft carriers were ordered by the previous government and have very high get out clauses which mean it would be pointless not to built them now. They did secure a large amount of jobs though in a certain labour constituency in Scotland which was under threat from the SNP.

[TheGayTent]

So Dalston, Limehouse and Shorditch in particular haven't changed over the last ten years? Not to mention Stratford and Hackney?

[Guest]

I thought Camden ran through Zone 1 and 2.... Camden station is in Zone 2...

But its besides the point...

Edited February 15, 2013 by tonyblair

[Guest]

So there's a few new builds gone up?

East Londoners have seen it all before. Beckton, Barking, Canning Town, Plaistow, Upton Park, the vast majority of Stratford, Whitechapel, Mile End, Bow, Forest Gate, Ilford etc etc all still shitholes. Still one of the poorest areas in the whole of the UK. Still the place to go to see the latest influx of immigrants.

Nothing has changed in East London. It's constantly a dump. In living memory anyway.

[mrtourette]

I'd sincerely doubt someone who wasn't concerned about the way Welfare users are being treated in the modern day and age. Thankfully, I think most people realise what's going on.

[mrtourette]

huh... you think I'm faking my outrage/displeasure/whatever-you-want-to-call-it?

how gracious of you

the article was in The Guardian. It wasn't half-arsed sub-primary school level. I used to live in a council flat, on benefits. The prospect of being forced to move scared me when I was in that situation... as you say this isn't new, but the level is.

You think it's ok to carry on segregating society depending on how much money they might have or not have...? well fine. I know it's already segregated, that doesn't mean we have to take it to it's ultimate conclusion.