The final push is starting... get rid of those pesky poor people

[eFestivals]

its right I pay more than others.

having established that, the next question is:-

what is the right 'more' that you should pay?

The problem is that the 'more' that you believe you should pay is less than the amount that you should pay.

Indeed, it's not even 'should', it's "need to pay" in proper capitalist terms.

Capitalism needs consumers, and that requires people other than the rich to have money to spend. The economy is dead precisely because the rich have all the money and they're not spending that money.

[eFestivals]

Again not true... Its a simple matter of money paid in vs money taken out and I simply over pay.

How do you get that money to pay in the first place Barry? Do you magic it out of the air all by yourself?

Or does it arrive in your pockets in the amount that it does not due to anything about the work you put in or the effort required, but due to a system that rewards you far more than it does others who work far harder?

As I said, the system over-funds you, and you then underfund the system - believing either that the system is riddled by fraud and so far too many recipients are undeserving of you paying in more, or that those who are not being overfunded for their work to the extent that you are are somehow deficient as a person and not deserving of you paying in more.

Oh sorry, I forgot. You're in the cleverest 10% and the hardest working 10% of everyone in the country and you deserve every penny and everyone else deserves their lot.

[feral chile]

Again not true... Its a simple matter of money paid in vs money taken out and I simply over pay.

Yeah we borrow shit loads and that some what clouds the issue but the fact is I still pay in more than what I take out, including education, NHS etc.

Edited February 16, 2013 by feral chile

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

Again not true... Its a simple matter of money paid in vs money taken out and I simply over pay.

Yeah we borrow shit loads and that some what clouds the issue but the fact is I still pay in more than what I take out, including education, NHS etc.

[sifi]

I'd be fascinated to see the maths you've applied to calculate how much you've been given by the state over the course of your life Oaf.

How much did you account for say for the costs if your birth? Your schooling per annum? The pro-ration of defence spending must have been a nightmare to work out.

I'd say it's likely that for the last few years, you've put in more than you've taken out. Suspect that for the first twenty two years, you probably didn't.

Edited February 16, 2013 by sifi

[abdoujaparov]

It's not a simple matter though is it? Do you really think you've paid in enough to cover yours and your family's education, healthcare, national security, roads, trains, etc. etc.? That's before we even get into a debate about society's defence of the status quo in terms of social and economic inequality. You fail to see the bigger picture. people like Neil are advocates for people like you, who are also getting screwed over, because those at the top, whose rewards are far higher than most, and are likely to have been unearned and undeserved, manage to convince the majority of people that they deserve what they have, by persuading you that the threat comes from the poor, who are taking all your taxes in benefits, instead of hiring clever accountants to deprive the public purse of money the obscenely wealthy wouldn't even miss. Because if you feel you need to defend your entitlement to your greater affluence compared to those receiving less, then by extension, you'll feel the need to defend the entitlement of those more affluent than you. And while those people of undue influence succeed in turning those who are at the bottom of the pile (you know, the other 99% of us) against each other, they're laughing all the way to their cosy tax havens.

[sifi]

Totally agree with you. I haven't yet paid back my debt to society and will continue to do so over the rest of my working life.... I never said I had paid back what I owe.

What I did say is that overlay pay back into the system. Proportionally I pay back more than I have averaged out, to expand the point to show you what I meant. I thought it was obvious but hey ho, some here need it spelling out a little more than others

Alway happy to help you out stifi

[feral chile]

That is certainly not what Neil advocates at all! He goes WAY further than that!!

If anything that is the exactly same opinion I posted the other day and Neil rubbished and said people like me should be paying way way more.

Basically people who earn the levels are as big of c**ts as the millionaires because we are all robbing the poor. That is Neils opinion.

I can't believe how little people listen here. If anyone at any point says well I can see their point there, regardless of how much other lefty stuff they say, they get automatically put in the Daily Mail ultra Tory box which I am far away from.

I made the same point the other day saying if your not in that 1% then we are all just fighting over the scraps and it just goes to show how people don't listen that this has been floated against me. Laughable really considering I made the exact same point.

Edited February 16, 2013 by feral chile

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

I don't live in America.... So not sure what your point is. We have the NHS which isn't as good but also isn't as costly.

[sifi]

Are you are saying you pay in more than you get out today, but not taking into account the debt you owe to society for most of your life?

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

But I don't want to use American healthcare... I want the NHS so its a nothing point surely ?

[sifi]

Oh I see. I thought you were stopping and thinking about your own contribution to society, the value you bring to society including but not limited to taxation against what you have been given. Rather than moan you pay too much for your slice of suburbia.

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

You are basically say no one could ever cover there own existence ? So who is covering it ?

Ok we can talk about borrowing to make it a bit more of a complicated discussion...

[mrtourette]

I do apologise. I shall in future refrain for commenting on anything for fear of upsetting such delicate souls

[abdoujaparov]

Thanks, your particular brand of hard-hitting and uncompromising social commentary is very difficult to accept.

[lost]

there was a study by the cps recently regarding at what point you become a net contributor

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2215070/Are-contributor-burden-nations-finances--Squeezed-middle-increasingly-dependent-state.html

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

We divide the cost of health between us all.so you simply can't compare... No one wants the yank system so can we move on.

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

there was a study by the cps recently regarding at what point you become a net contributor

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2215070/Are-contributor-burden-nations-finances--Squeezed-middle-increasingly-dependent-state.html

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

Play whichever way you want but I am hardly a regular down a&e or the GP...

Edited February 16, 2013 by thesecretingredientiscrime

[bunique]

I would imagine US medical fees are massively overinflated given the privatised nature of it. Eg. cost (travel, professional time, medication) of giving birth in hospital on NHS - £1,631 for a low-risk pregnancy. In the US it averages around $10,000 - double that for a high-risk pregnancy ending in c-section with complications.

[eFestivals]

Basically people who earn the levels are as big of c**ts as the millionaires because we are all robbing the poor. That is Neils opinion.

so please do tell me why you deserve 3 holidays a year and everything else you have, whilst someone who is working many more hours than you but for a pittance and so requires housing benefit deserves to be moved from London to (say) Hull.

[eFestivals]

I now pay back proportionally more than is due to hard work, doing well and yeah, being lucky to some extent.

you're still completely ignoring that it's the system that gives you the money with which you then pay into the system with taxes.

Are you doing extremely well out of that system?

[eFestivals]

I don't disagree.... But coming after me is a total waste of space. Its scraps off the table compared to the big boys.

Nope, it's not, it's all part of the same thing.

We can only get the big boys if the likes of you is also willing to support its effects back onto you - which requires you and people like you to support moves which would increase the taxes you pay as well as the taxes that the big boys pay.

Nothing changes because you say "go after them only and not me. I'm deserving of everything I have".

You're no more deserving of everything you have than those big boys, the only difference is in the extent of what you have.

You use "get the big boys" as your disingenuous reason for why you shouldn't contribute fairly yourself.

I thought you Christians were supposed to have morals? You're showing that you only have selfishness. You should do what is right because it is right and not only if everyone else is also doing right.

Edited February 17, 2013 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Im not a Christian though...

OK, i'll reword it: you claim to be part of a loving church community.

[eFestivals]

What makes them any more deserving ? Me less deserving ?

What a weird choice of words...

I'm not trying to suggest that they also deserve 3 holidays a year, I'm saying they deserve respect as human beings.

The respect you won't give them.