e-petition to reinstate the free road tax on older vehicles.

[Guest]

I know the tax we pay doesn't come with conditions,but if they started using it for the right purposes we would not be living in the state we are now.

Edited March 6, 2013 by tonyblair

[neilloggie]

so we're 'in this state' because taxes are 'mis-used'..? that's a new one on me

[neilloggie]

We simply need less cars and anything to "encourage" people not to use them is the right way. Taxes should be higher for all but the most green cars.

[kaosmark2]

Before we take cars off the road we need to invest in better public transport.

[abdoujaparov]

Public transport is fine really... I use it all the time. Yeah it's not as comfy as your car but tough shit.

If your old bus s producing little co2 then great it probably deserves a lower tax rate on that ground. Not its age.

[kaosmark2]

The cost of public transport isn't ok. service varies around the country

[neilloggie]

Generally, you're right. Most people wh moan about public transport would only be happy if the bus pulled up outside their font door on demand.

Unless you live in a very rural area, public transport is generally ok (I say that as someone who lives in a very rural area with two buses a day and the nearest bus stop a two mile walk away...)

[neilloggie]

And better public transport is only available in countries where its nationalised and there's a high tax rate.

[eFestivals]

Misused in many ways,

might your wish for a tax-break for those people who are rich enough to own a historic vehicle be yet another mis-use of taxes? Just a thought.

After all, you're wanting to spend the taxes paid by other people as a direct benefit for yourself.

[eFestivals]

We had one of the finest public transport networks in the world and yes direct tax may have been higher,but as the income tax we pay may have gone down the rate of indirect taxes have risen sharply.

the tax burden now is almost no different to what it was in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, and the 00s.

What has changed is how those taxes are raised, with all those people earning over average wage having benefitted quite a lot via the tax regime changes since the 80s, while those who earn under the average are paying more in taxes.

[abdoujaparov]

The cost of public transport isn't ok. service varies around the country

[TheGayTent]

Comparing travel costs between car and train journeys is difficult, due to the way train ticket prices vary depending on the time you travel and how far in advance you know you are going.

If I know I am going to Manchester in June I can probably get there cheaper by rail than road. If my uncle gets sick today and I need to do the same journey tomorrow it could be 8 times more expensive going by train than car. That is what stinks.

Very rare that a journey being undertaken by 2 or more people isn't cheaper by road than it is rail.

[eFestivals]

Comparing travel costs between car and train journeys is difficult, due to the way train ticket prices vary depending on the time you travel and how far in advance you know you are going.

If I know I am going to Manchester in June I can probably get there cheaper by rail than road. If my uncle gets sick today and I need to do the same journey tomorrow it could be 8 times more expensive going by train than car. That is what stinks.

Very rare that a journey being undertaken by 2 or more people isn't cheaper by road than it is rail.

the train services and costs of those services - a massive fuck-up - is the result of the ideology you subscribe to.

We can have a decent public transport system or we can have the tories. We cannot have both.

Edited March 7, 2013 by eFestivals

[TheGayTent]

the train services and costs of those services - a massive fuck-up - is the result of the ideology you subscribe to.

We can have a decent public transport system or we can have the tories. We cannot have both.

[TheGayTent]

I can get a train to Manchester (involves 2 trains and 1 tube) for as little as £16.50 and as much as £171. That's a single. Normal ticket not 1st class.

The disparity is shocking.

The journey by car taking into account no other cost bar fuel would be approx £40.

[eFestivals]

I don't think the costs of the services are a fuck up. Many journey costs are very good value for money. However, many aren't. It's the balance struck I don't like, not the overall cost.

It's no more a Tory issue than a Lib Dem or Labour one.

It is.

The private ownership of services is the tories doing.

The pricing of those services is the tories doing.

The pricing is designed to maximise profits, and not maximise use of the transport system.

I know that Blair didn't change much about any of this when he might have chosen to do, but he was a man running scared of the Thatcherist ideology which has taken over the minds off too many of our stupid electorate. So he bottled it.

He didn't even properly re-nationalise the infrastructure when he had the chance, after private ownership had sold off as many of the assets as they could and run off with the money they'd made by doing that, as well as not mainstaining the infrastructure they were legally obliged to maintain.

Until people wise up to how Thatcherism has fucked this country from top to bottom, we're stuck in tory-land no matter which party is in power.

Edited March 7, 2013 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I can get a train to Manchester (involves 2 trains and 1 tube) for as little as £16.50 and as much as £171. That's a single. Normal ticket not 1st class.

The disparity is shocking.

The journey by car taking into account no other cost bar fuel would be approx £40.

Guess who set the pricing structure that you find so shocking?

Yep, your heroes.

Perhaps these shocks will one day kick some other parts of your brain into gear, rather than the part that gets shocked being the only part which is working.

[TheGayTent]

The problem isn't any of the political parties. The problem is the countries voters. To make real change requires tough and unpopular choices. Policies that would be vote losers. Which is why parties won't take them.

I reiterate, I don't think rail costs as a whole are poor value for money.

[TheGayTent]

Guess who set the pricing structure that you find so shocking?

Yep, your heroes.

Perhaps these shocks will one day kick some other parts of your brain into gear, rather than the part that gets shocked being the only part which is working.

[eFestivals]

The problem isn't any of the political parties. The problem is the countries voters.

The problem is both. The country is too-stupidly Thatcherist, which causes the political parties that wouldn't otherwise be Thatcherist to be Thatcherist (so not the tories, they're firmly fixed to Thatcherism).

To make real change requires tough and unpopular choices. Policies that would be vote losers. Which is why parties won't take them.

But the party that you support do not wish to make changes, whether they're vote winners of vote losers. They believe that the structure we have for the railways is about the structure that should exist for the railways (tho they'd much prefer for the infrastructure to also be private - despite it already having been shown that it just doesn't work).

I reiterate, I don't think rail costs as a whole are poor value for money.

And yet we're paying far more in taxes now (in real terms) to support the railways than was ever the case under BR, whilst the railways are used massively more (the private companies are running off with all the money), and the services are slower and less reliable than they were 100 years ago.

The vote winner is re-nationalisation, with the resulting tax cut and the resulting improvement in prices and services. So why won't the parties do it?

The answer is Thatcherism.

The tories are bound to the idea of private ownership always being cheaper and better - despite the facts definitively proving otherwise.

And the LibDems and Labour are shit scared of stepping outside of Thatcherism, because they realise just how stupid the electorate are.

[eFestivals]

the current pricing structure came into being during the 13 years of New Labour.

it was merely a tweak of what the tories had already created.

The problem is the private ownership that the tories created, and still unequivocally stand by - despite it being more excpensive to both the taxpayer and the passenger, and with shitter services to boot.

[TheGayTent]

We are paying more in taxes now in real terms to support the UK railway system due to 100 years of underinvestment in rail infrastructure.

That's not Thatcher's fault. That's everyone's fault.

The train operators aren't squeaky clean, but the vast majority of problems commuters face are down to the (as good as) nationalised Network Rail...

[eFestivals]

We are paying more in taxes now in real terms to support the UK railway system due to 100 years of underinvestment in rail infrastructure.

that's just not true.

Yes, there were points in the past when investment was lower than it should have been, but in real terms investment in existing infrastructure now is - guess what? Lower in real terms than was the case before privatisation.

That's not Thatcher's fault. That's everyone's fault.

Only to the extent that the public voted in the witch and then allowed her to destroy the country.

If she'd not wanted to destroy the country to enrich Dennis then guilt could not be directed at the electorate

The train operators aren't squeaky clean, but the vast majority of problems commuters face are down to the (as good as) nationalised Network Rail...

Complete bull.

It's not NR that has had the operating companies slow down the timetables, but those operating companies protecting their profits.

It's not NR that have caused some train prices to increase by over 2000% in real terms.

Etc, etc, etc.

[TheGayTent]

If I use a Datsun Sunny and drive it down an off road track will the journey be improved if I upgrade for an improved but more expensive Vauxhall Insignia?

If I upgrade the bumpy off road track to a full Tarmac road but keep the Sunny will that give a greater improvement than the upgrade to the insignia?

[TheGayTent]

It's Thatcher's fault that in the 70 years prior to her becoming PM rail infrastructure was underfunded by the government of the day?

Good one