Rightfield

[Teddington]

Really? what gave you that idea?

I guess on the same basis they'd also be no private debt either.

Yep, it was the nu-Labour govt which bailed out the free-market banks, who'd run riot with raving right wing ideas as a result of being set free to pursue those raving right free market ideas.

Before nu-Labour felt it necessary to ensure that the rich didn't lose a penny by having everyone else pick up the tab, nu-Labour had succeeded in bring down the national debt by over 10% (from over 40% in 1997, to under 30% in 2008).

And since 2010, the Tories have added over 30% to the national debt - they've very nearly doubled it!

But not a fact at all, as it happens.

nu-Labour are a right wing party. Just because they're to the left of the raving right wing tories doesn't make them left wing.

And the tories have added much more to the national debt since 2010 than Labour added to it between 2008 and 2010 (and before 2008 they reduced it by over 10%).

So you'll have to try a bit harder. Referencing the facts and not the Daily Hate Mail is a good way to start.

[Teddington]

And yet it does.

It was the free market that created the debt in the first place.

The govt then decided to pick up that5 bankers debt to help support the free market, on the basis that there might be no market art all if they didn't.

And the free marketeers all supported the govt doing that (unless you'd like to show me the free marketeers who said "please don't save us"? )

So, what you have is:-

- free market created debts.

- govt bail-outs in support of the free market.

- free market aficionados all scooping up that govt money.

But the free market hates all of that, eh? PMSL.

[mrtourette]

But the terms are well defined, just because some people are not aware of how to delineate correctly based on those defined terms does not make them useless.

[eFestivals]

Without the Capitalist system Glasto would not exist.

I'm so glad you're expert in your analysis.

Did nothing at all exist in the command economies of the Eastern Bloc, then?

A very simple starter for 10 would be the fact that without the "fence" there would be no festival.

Only if only money is the only driver to everything.

Did we win WW2 only because of money?

Or might there be a bit more going in in the smart people's heads than how much they can rob from their neighbours?

Money is generated through the free market.

No, money is generated by printing presses (or, the modern equivalent of electronically).

[eFestivals]

In a totally free market there would be no national debt. FACT.

PMSL ... keep taking the stupid pills.

Why do you think a govt is not able to borrow money in a free market system?

[Teddington]

PMSL ... keep taking the stupid pills.

Why do you think a govt is not able to borrow money in a free market system?

[eFestivals]

I think it is you who seems to be taking the pills.

Read what you just typed

The GOVT is able to BORROW money

The clue is in what you typed.

The clue is in what you typed. The clue that it gives is a clue to your accuracy in this debate.

If the market was TOTALLY free there would be no government debt at all.

You said a truly free market requires all govts to be free of debt.

I've called your utter bollocks as utter bollocks. Because it's utter bollocks.

[Teddington]

The clue is in what you typed. The clue that it gives is a clue to your accuracy in this debate.

You said a truly free market requires all govts to be free of debt.

I've called your utter bollocks as utter bollocks. Because it's utter bollocks.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Teddington

[William of Walworth]

Haven't had time to read all of this thread but here's a question for Teddington -- you accept that if you lean Rightwards, that means that politically speaking you're most likely in a smallish minority at Glastonbury?

Not saying (at all) that people with all politics and none should not be welcome at Glastonbury, because they are. But like efestivals said, debate slots in Leftfield (and in some of the Green Fields tents) are open to all and if your argument is cogent enough and you're courteous, you'd have the opportunity to put it.

The long history of the Glastonbury Festival's political engagement and its history of raising ,money for good causes and its general support of radical causes, especially in the past, is always going to make it more Left inclined than Right leaning.

To my mind we need that alterantive space, that space for alternative and different ideas. It's healthy that the Festival still encourages it.

Most people go to have fun, and just generally enjoy the atmosphere and site, not for politics, whch many people prefer to forget about and avoid. Which is perfectly possible too.

Also you can get Daily Telegraphs as well as Guardians there if that floats yer boat!

In the 'real world', right leaning arguments dominate the mainstream, establishment media (only a complete frothing Tory, IMO, would think that the BBC is some sort of 'left wing' propaganda unit).

For some of us old school lefties, it's nice to get down to a festival where alternative ideas and arguments have space to be heard.

To complain about Leftfield and no Rightfield being 'unfair' is perverse. There's no Leftfield outside Glastonbury!

Read your festival history, I'd suggest.

Edited May 13, 2013 by William of Walworth

[eFestivals]

In a totally free market there would be no need for any public debt. Not bollocks.

yeah, because govts have no need to invest in anything, eh?

I can only assume that you're talking about Marxism, where the state has withered away and so has no purpose at all and therefore does not need to borrow money to invest.

[marktea]

You do realise that this is totally incorrect don't you?

If the market was TOTALLY free there would be no government debt at all. Sure there would also be fewer hospital and schools and a privately run army, but the point still is valid.

It was the Labour government that doubled the national debt. Nothing to do with the free market.

Not a raving right wing idea. Just a fact.

[ukdaasfan]

Nu-Labour was a rather confused mess, like most parties these days. As far as I can work out the main role of Nu-Labour, like the current Conservative and Lib Dem Government is to keep there leaders in power and very little else. The fact that nu labour was in charge when the collapse happen doesn't release the Tories there deplorable job as the opposition any more that the Tories attempts at reform can be totally exonerate what Nu labour presided over. As for the arguement over national debt, it is an argument no-one can win cause none of us know the total value of the off balance sheet debt run up by PFI under the labour years or the true value or not of QE or the bank bail out. I certainly would not call Nu Labour a party of the left, they were trying to be centrists the same way everyone else is. As for IDS and Gove, love or hate them (and lets face it Gove is not a person with whom the word live is easily fits) at least they have some form of ideology they are following. Actually having had to apply for benefits when we had kids and my wife wasn't working the any idea that leads to a single benefit would be bloody marvellous. I don't for a minute that the Civil service will let him do it of course :-) Bureaucracy is self perpetuating. As for a Right Field, however Right Wing I may be (and that is fairly on some things, less so on others) the idea of a Left Field at Glastonbury is the sort of inclusiveness that drives me round the bend. Leftfield is fine for those that want's it, good luck to them as much as I disagree with them it seem like a perfectly valid place for them to express there ideas. Something I think is more important in the end than anything. I don't think Right Field would fit, and lets face it it would probably be crap. Even I would rather listen to Bob Crowe than Mr Farage. :-) Move RightField to Latitude, it is the Radio 4 of Festivals after all.

[Witty username here]

In a totally free market there would be no need for any public debt. Not bollocks.

[mrtourette]

Haven't had time to read all of this thread but here's a question for Teddington -- you accept that if you lean Rightwards, that means that politically speaking you're most likely in a smallish minority at Glastonbury?

Not saying (at all) that people with all politics and none should not be welcome at Glastonbury, because they are. But like efestivals said, debate slots in Leftfield (and in some of the Green Fields tents) are open to all and if your argument is cogent enough and you're courteous, you'd have the opportunity to put it.

The long history of the Glastonbury Festival's political engagement and its history of raising ,money for good causes and its general support of radical causes, especially in the past, is always going to make it more Left inclined than Right leaning.

To my mind we need that alterantive space, that space for alternative and different ideas. It's healthy that the Festival still encourages it.

Most people go to have fun, and just generally enjoy the atmosphere and site, not for politics, whch many people prefer to forget about and avoid. Which is perfectly possible too.

Also you can get Daily Telegraphs as well as Guardians there if that floats yer boat!

In the 'real world', right leaning arguments dominate the mainstream, establishment media (only a complete frothing Tory, IMO, would think that the BBC is some sort of 'left wing' propaganda unit).

For some of us old school lefties, it's nice to get down to a festival where alternative ideas and arguments have space to be heard.

To complain about Leftfield and no Rightfield being 'unfair' is perverse. There's no Leftfield outside Glastonbury!

Read your festival history, I'd suggest.

[ukdaasfan]

Of course if we were being pernickety debt using % GDP always exaggerates the % during recessions (when GDP goes down) and under values during booms. For a decent analysis I was taught to compare with value in real terms.

[Trebor]

Teddington, every post you're making is making you look sillier and sillier. Shame as you seem to be named after a character from one of my daughter's favourite shows. So I can't dislike you too much.

[Teddington]

Would this be one of those notional libertarian 'no-government' scenarios then? Because any state that has a governance overhead always has the possibility of debt, and therefore public debt - regardless of the nature of economy - command, mixed, or free-market.

[ukdaasfan]

I certainly agree that the Leftfield area is valuable, but is it really that much of an alternative to what you get outside Glastonbury? Those sorts of views are available and accessible at all other times of the year, I don't think you only get to hear them at the festival. It's good that they are prevalent at the festival (from a social as well as financial point of view) but they don't strike me as anythign groundbreaking

[eFestivals]

Fantastic ....more facts. Can't get enough of those.

Nice post Mark.

[mrtourette]

Teddington, every post you're making is making you look sillier and sillier. Shame as you seem to be named after a character from one of my daughter's favourite shows. So I can't dislike you too much.

[wilko8]

I saw Billy Bragg at the infinite monkey cage in 2011.

I can't remember what they were talking about exactly, but Billy outlined a theory, Brian Cox explained in very simple terms how Billy was incorrect in what he was saying. Billy didn't understand, so just repeated his theory. Brian Cox explain how he was wrong. Billy didn't understand, so just repeated his theory. That's when I left.

[William of Walworth]

I certainly agree that the Leftfield area is valuable, but is it really that much of an alternative to what you get outside Glastonbury? Those sorts of views are available and accessible at all other times of the year, I don't think you only get to hear them at the festival. It's good that they are prevalent at the festival (from a social as well as financial point of view) but they don't strike me as anythign groundbreaking.

Edited May 13, 2013 by William of Walworth

[eFestivals]

I certainly agree that the Leftfield area is valuable, but is it really that much of an alternative to what you get outside Glastonbury? Those sorts of views are available and accessible at all other times of the year, I don't think you only get to hear them at the festival. It's good that they are prevalent at the festival (from a social as well as financial point of view) but they don't strike me as anythign groundbreaking.

they're not groundbreaking but they are getting a platform at Glastonbury that they don't get in the wider world.

It's much like those people who say "the police are not institutionally racist but the fact of there being a black police officers organisation is racist. Where is the white officers association?" To which the answer is of course: the police itself.

Right wing views absolutely dominate society. The left does not get a look in.

It leads to stupid fuckers believing that UKIP will cure all of the problems of this country via us leaving the EU, without any examination of their policies in deeper detail - such as the REAL reason why they want to leave the EU: to crush workers employment rights and other hard-fought for gains by "the people" from "the elite".

Edited May 13, 2013 by eFestivals

[mrtourette]

Entirely take that point and I agree really, but the number of people around me moaning on about benefit scroungers and migrants and travellers, make coming to somewhere like Glastonbury, where right wing Sun/Mail propaganda recyciling gobshites are less loudmouthed, very welcome as an escape!

[William of Walworth]

I saw Billy Bragg at the infinite monkey cage in 2011.

I can't remember what they were talking about exactly, but Billy outlined a theory, Brian Cox explained in very simple terms how Billy was incorrect in what he was saying. Billy didn't understand, so just repeated his theory. Brian Cox explain how he was wrong. Billy didn't understand, so just repeated his theory. That's when I left.