Football 2013-2014

[eFestivals]

#MoyesIn

[thetime]

Those who laugh last laugh the longest.

[kaosmark2]

I think the fixture list has been fairly kind to you, but fair play for taking advantage. To me the big test for arsenal comes when you play a man u/chelsea/city. In the past I never had any confidence you had the character to win these matches, hope things have now changed.

[Gucci Piggy]

Well Arsenal have to play Chelsea, Liverpool, Dortmund and Man U in a row in October/November, so we'll see how they fare then.

[Jackmypie]

"Really worried David Moyes might be sacked before Xmas and not be given the chance to ruin United properly. #MoyesIn"

That made me laugh

On the subject of managerial sackings, Derby manager was sacked yesterday after losing to Forest. Lose 3 games in a row and you're kicked out, ridiculous.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Jackmypie

[Bobs]

Did you hear Moyes moaning about how they had to play West Brom so early in the season? Fixed if you ask me #MoyesIn

[pink_triangle]

Fixture list being kind early means being cruel later, but they've got the points on the board.

I think Arsenal did really well in their draw at City last season. Lots of character in that. And they beat Spurs.

[pink_triangle]

Those who laugh last laugh the longest.

[kaosmark2]

I see Arsenal as a confidence side, they are probably better having the easier fixtures early in the season to build up belief later. WBA, Norwich and Palace coming in October so no reason the wins cant keep coming, I think November could be the real test. Liverpool (H), Dortmund (A), Man Utd (A) if they can get through that testing trio intact then their confidence will be sky high.

[pink_triangle]

You've missed out Chelsea coming right before that difficult trio. Or are you ignoring it because it's the League Cup?

I'm not sure Arsenal are much more of a confidence side than other teams around them. I certainly see City struggling with confidence at times, their form so far has been very inconsistent and I expect that to affect them.

I don't think you can read too much into the Liverpool or City games on their own, but add in the Chelsea game, and Moyes set his team out defensively in all of them with them really struggling. You say the WBA game could be an anomaly, yet the reason you thought they had serious title credentials was because you reckoned they'd be incredibly consistent against mid-table teams. Chelsea have had an unimpressive start but they've had a similarly difficult fixture list with games away at Man U, Everton and Spurs, City have struggled, but again, their difficulties have been away from home. Man U have lost 3 games already, worst start in however many years, etc. etc.

[kaosmark2]

Ignoring the Chelsea game because its the league cup, I think Arsenal will play a weakened team and Chelsea will knock them out, with little damage done to confidence.

I still think Man Utd will be prolific against the mid/lower teams and the wba game will be a bit of a one off, however my confidence in that prediction is waning. Maybe Fergie knew what he was doing when he decided last May was the right time to go.

Spurs failing to beat Chelsea didn't surprise me, they are another team who don't always seem to have the confidence ot finish the job against the big teams. I have a worrying feeling Chelsea may win the title by being difficult to beat against their rivals.

[Bobs]

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at that. I think Chelsea will rest players, but that still leaves the likes of Willian, Ba, Luiz in their spine and I fancy that sort of team to be comfortable against Arsenal youth.

About 3 years ago I thought Man U would go into a decline when their spine aged. VDS/Ferdinand/Scholes/Giggs. OK, Rio's still a regular presence but he's lost a lot of pace in the last 2 years and has struggled at times. Through that time I've been convinced that they don't have a squad that should win major trophies, and they've been shown up in Europe as being vulnerable, but Fergie has covered over that very effectively in the Prem with an incredible personal mentality he's instilled into the squad, supplemented by manipulation of referees, and further aided by Chelsea's crazy manager turnover and Arsenal's financial turbulence + selling habits.

Moyes might be able to redevelop this squad into a force again, but I think Fergie did deal him a seriously crap hand. Not many players in their team/squad will instil a fear factor in opponents (RVP obv. and Rooney if his form remains), while I think Fergie carried that through Man U despite a decline in their team. This bad start will only add to teams thinking they can get at Man U and not just pinch a result but actually earn it. I'd be surprised if they miss out on the Champions League, but I'd be equally surprised if they're in the title mix come April.

I don't think it's just confidence for Spurs finishing the job against big teams, I think they lack a star player that their rivals are terrified of and wish they had. Maybe Eriksen or Lamela can become that good, but are other teams really going to think they'll have to sit deep for fear of Sigurddson? Soldado? Townsend? Talented players but while Spurs look very strong defensively and at holding possession, I think they'll struggle to penetrate defenses of top teams. I don't think Chelsea will win many games against their rivals, but as you say, I can't see them losing many. I think Chelsea will look more formidable as the season goes on as well, as squad depth begins to tell, and the players and manager settle together.

[lost]

And okay i may be slightly bias because i want Moyes to fail, because he was so disrespectful regarding the bidding for Baines and Fellaini,

[5co77ie]

Fergie put Man Utd 11th in his first season, he then brought up a load of kids that he'd overseen their development and they won loads.

Moyes has kept Everton punching above their weight (see post above) thanks to the youth he's brought through.

Man Utd's youth pool at present are sure to be even more talented - I just hope Utd fans get him the sack before he builds his first youth squad.

[pink_triangle]

I look at United's team now, and i assume most fans will too (I'm an Everton Fan), and i'm not scared of them, If you take Rooney and RVP out, they're nothing more than a mid table team at best, which you have to give credit to Ferguson for, because you appreciate the job he managed to do! That squad won the league last year!

.

If a european team does decide to take a gamble and take Rooney on, do you really see any 'TOP' european player coming to United? Whilst arguably, they are still the biggest team in the UK, infact no arguably about it, they are still the biggest what appeal do they have? Money? No they can go to Real, Barca, City, Monaco or Psg for that, Top Manager to work under? Guardiola? Ancelotti? Mancini? Mourinho? or Moyes? The chance to play with some of the worlds top players like Hazard, Ronaldo, Ozil, Messi, Iniesta, Ribery, Gotze, Xavi, Ibrahimovic, Falcao?

To be fair, that's not Moyes' fault that Ferguson left the team in the way he did, but in 10 years they've gone from Beckham, Keane, Van Nistelrooy and Prime Scholes and Giggs to a 40-year old Giggs, Zaha, Welbeck and Cleverley.

It's only inevitable that they're gonna decrease!

And okay i may be slightly bias because i want Moyes to fail, because he was so disrespectful regarding the bidding for Baines and Fellaini,

I would cast my doubt on United finishing top 4 purely because Spurs, Arsenal, City and Chelsea are all stronger, i feel that i need to mention that i don't think Liverpool will be up there at the end of the season, 5-6th maybe, but they're too Jekyll and Hyde to maintain a top 4 push imho.

[eFestivals]

Man Utd's youth pool at present are sure to be even more talented

not sure about that. it's a long while since fergie had much success with all the many rated kids he's bought in over the years.

He got lucky with that early 90s bunch of kids I reckon. What wasn't lucky was the faith he put in them.

[kaosmark2]

but i just don't see him as an intimidating manager, if Everton played United tomorrow at Old Trafford, i'd feel confident in going there and grabbing a win, Etihad, Emirates, Stamford Bridge or WHL, well you know you're in for a difficult day, but i know there's Newcastle fans and Villa fans on this board among others, i assume you feel this way?

[pink_triangle]

Everton did BETTER than their financial circumstances suggest, but apart from the last 2 years - partially aided by departing long-term players like Cahill and Arteta on high wages - they have been in the top 10 spenders in the league over all finances. They typically finish 7th-10th, which to me says they're doing only slightly better, not fantastically.

[kaosmark2]

If the differences in finance between 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 down to 10-20 was spread evenly though the league I would agree with you. However the top 6 richest sides in the premership are all in the top 15 richest clubs in the world. The financiak dscrepancy means fantastically better is not realistic.

[5co77ie]

In general, I think you've been overly harsh on Moyes, Man U's squad, players and world appeal. I agree with your basic points, but think you're taking it too far.

This bit though, I agree with. I've already expressed that I think Man U will struggle to instil the fear factor at places like Villa Park, St. James', Goodison. I think they'll have it at Old Trafford, despite the loss to WBA, but away they'll have more difficulty than in recent years at the good but not top teams.

To lost, Scottie, and anyone who goes on about Moyes "doing great considering the financial restraints":

Everton, from 2002-2010, had on average the 8th highest wage bill in the Prem.

Everton have made a large number of big, expensive signings. Not in comparison to the top 6 teams, but the cost of the signings (in terms of transfer fee) is comparable to the likes of QPR, Newcastle (under Shepherd), Sunderland, Villa, Stoke, rather than to the likes of Swansea, Wigan, WBA, Fulham. In fact, their total transfer spend over 2002-2010 was 9th in the league, and net 11th despite the massive figures gained for Rooney and Lescott.

Everton did BETTER than their financial circumstances suggest, but apart from the last 2 years - partially aided by departing long-term players like Cahill and Arteta on high wages - they have been in the top 10 spenders in the league over all finances. They typically finish 7th-10th, which to me says they're doing only slightly better, not fantastically.

This myth about them being phenomenally good despite their finances comes about because every season the BBC constantly perpetuate it, and because most seasons they go on a great run which includes beating 1 or 2 of the giants in the league - usually during the time it affects the title race/top 4 race.

Moyes did well, not brilliantly. He misspent frequently (Bilayetdinov being the big price, but lots of £3-5m fees with noticable wages), or spent big on players then didn't get much out of them (Andy Johnson, Yakubu, Beattie). Everton pay BIG loan fees as well, Lukaku at £5m for 1 season seems expensive now, but Jeffers cost £500k back in 2003, Arteta £1m in 2005, Pienaar £1m + £1.5m, Jo £2.3m, Drenthe £1.8m. That's a lot on loan fees, particularly only 2 of them worked out. (I haven't seen figures for other ones), and they scale to being equivalent to Lukaku when you factor in transfer fee changes.

These fees are rarely massive, but when you consider clubs like WBA, Wigan, Swansea, Norwich (before this season) consider £3m to be an expensive signing within their budgets, and operate on half the wages, it's less impressive. Talk about how "keeping them up" was an achievement is just ludicrous, they shouldn't be flirting with relegation apart from maybe the odd bad season with an injury crisis (note. if injury problems occur frequently at the same period in the season, the training regime/pre-season/management needs to be questioned). Fulham have been an ever-present in the Prem in that time and have a budget ~ 3/4s of Everton's.

Also, Everton haven't had many good cup runs - inc. Europa League - because they majorly focus on the Prem. Other competitions take it out of the squad, while prioritising the Prem to the extent Moyes has, helps produce rewards of better results in the 2nd half of the season, as happened with Everton regularly.

/rant

[kaosmark2]

How much does Everton owe the bank compared to the other teams though?

[lost]

not sure where those figures come from a quick Google tells me Everton have the 13th highest wage bill and the only club to return a profit in the last 10 years via transfers

spend £152,050,500 received £155,916,000

[kaosmark2]

A page on Swiss ramble about 2 years ago, which is usually excellent at articles about the finances in football.

[Bobs]

Interesting response.

Not gonna quote everyone cause it'd be a whole page again.

Some may say reaction is a bit knee jerk, but it really isn't! I've said before and I'll say it again, what Moyes did at Everton was reminiscent of a miracle, but what Moyes did so well was work well as an underdog, he'd grind out results against the little teAms, but sheepishly lose to a big team!

But when people started to look up and think, "Maybe everton aren't overachieving" that's when it started to go wrong,and whilst he did a good job, no a brilliant job, I think the bitter tastefor Moyes started to finally start kicking I for us blues when we lost 2-1 to Liverpool atWembley, he bottled it in the big moments and when it got to a crunch time in the game, he was going to take our sole striker off and replace him with Tony Hibbert.

We lost 2-1.

For me, that's when he should have walked about, and It because very stale, very quick from then on, crowds started to dwindle, the general scenario of being so conservative away from home may as well of resulted in a big arrow pointing about our goal sayin, we've parked the bus.

I think he lost the fire in his belly, and that's just not good enough. I feel maybe the approach for United was inevitable and disrupted out entire season from when the deal was brokered out last November.

But I do think he's bitten off more than he could chew, If I'm wrong I'll hold my hands up and say, but for me, I can't see him managing a team who's bigger than Everton, I may get sniped at by a member of the board for drawing comparisons here, but someone like West Ham or Newcastle may have suited him more, because as 11-years of watching Moyes has taught me, he's a big time bottle merchant, and this united job is the hardest in the world, he will need to grab the bull by the horns and stop setting up so defensively if he's going to succeed, the difference being the board won't give him a year to sink in, because that's not how football is anymore!

[kaosmark2]

But I do think he's bitten off more than he could chew, If I'm wrong I'll hold my hands up and say, but for me, I can't see him managing a team who's bigger than Everton, I may get sniped at by a member of the board for drawing comparisons here, but someone like West Ham or Newcastle may have suited him more, because as 11-years of watching Moyes has taught me, he's a big time bottle merchant, and this united job is the hardest in the world, he will need to grab the bull by the horns and stop setting up so defensively if he's going to succeed, the difference being the board won't give him a year to sink in, because that's not how football is anymore!