conforming as a nonconformist?

[feral chile]

I've seen some 60 year olds with pretty mad hair. I know what you mean though. Is it work that's making it difficult?

Not in a nasty way, they've been very approving and supportive. The reason I got my hair cut was because it wasn't in very good condition, so the plan was to chop it off and start again.

The girl who cut it did such a good job that even I liked it, and 3 weeks in I'm still getting compliments from people I only know by sight, and it is a very nice, modern, elegant haircut

But it's not really me. It's an inverted bob a la Victoria Beckham.

I don't really do dignified.

[feral chile]

I wouldn't have had you down as someone who'd like to wear a uniform.

Are you feeling pressured to 'not' look different, or to look different? Or is it both?

What do you like to wear when you're not at work? Is that acceptable?

I wouldn't either. I'm feeling pressured by people's kindness, which is a weakness of mine. If I was getting hassled, I'd probably turn up in something outrageous just to prove a point. And they'd get a sample of how stereotypically fiery redhead I can be.

As you know, I'm a big fan of BF Skinner, and this was a big thing of his - hidden control, social approval - it's far more insidious than some kind of overt control. How can you resist kind words and acceptance?

[feral chile]

do you want to stay the same, or would you be open to the possibility that you might change?

I don't mean that at all flippantly. Resisting change as an act of defiance is self-defeating, isn't it?

I'm not saying this is what you're doing, just a thought.

I think I'm feeling I want to change a bit - 10 years ago, I was quite happy to be dressing 20 years too young, and I didn't give a stuff if others thought it was inappropriate - I'm more than a number.

now though, I'm suddenly thinking about what's appropriate. I think I'm disapproving of my own attitude, because now I'm kind of thinking other people's opinions might be valid. At the same time, realising that it's me choosing to think that.

I always used to think, it's only for me to decide when I'm too old for x y z.

And that time's here.

[feral chile]

cool.. go for it

I think NOT changing is more of an old persons thing than changing is.

The hard bit is trying to ignore what might be influencing you, and trying to work out what you (or I, or anyone) actually want. I don't know about what BF Skinner says, but the insidious thing is interesting. How do we ever know what influences us? It's good to be in a place every now and again where nothing matters (wherever that may be...?).

What Skinner talks about is hidden control. Basically, the carrot rather than the stick. Giving people what they want in order to get them to do what you want.

He wanted to create a world where conditioning was openly recognised, and used to provide a benign society. His basic premise was, we're going to be influenced anyway, so manipulate that influence for good things - adapting our own adaptive mechanisms, if you will.

As animals, we work on the environment to get what we want. So you'll have an antecedent, a behaviour, and a consequence. If the consequence is desirable, when that situation (antecedent) is repeated, the behaviour is likely to be repeated in expectation of the desired reward.

(Bear in mind that I'm committing sacrilege here, by using words such as expectations and desire, as they're unobservable and therefore unscientific)

So, Skinner says, instead of forcing people to do things, and having them randomly reinforced sometimes in an accidental and not particularly constructive way (fetishes, self destructive behaviour etc.), why not develop a technology of behaviour so we can control the control.

unfortunately, advocates of freedom hated the idea, lots think it's confused thinking (which it is, because if you're subject to control how can you step outside to be the controller, and everyone envisaged A Brave New World.

If, however, you think of freedom as control, rather than lack of control, which is ultimately randomness and chaos, and would prevent freedom, and consciousness of control as freedom (which behaviourists never would), then the idea's salvageable.

[feral chile]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walden_Two

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_freedom_and_dignity

[feral chile]

that's errr..... beautiful.

something(s) to dwell on there

it's difficult to think of freedom as control

think of it as the ability of an agent to cause an event then. Control/determinism are linked. You couldn't have freedom if you didn't know that what you did would bring about an effect, and you've learnt that, by experience.

That's all conditioned behaviour is, people think it turns us into automatons, but in reality it makes us causal agents, and therefore free.

I remember having this debate with my lecturer, I said the animal wasn't free. And he said of course the animal's free, the animal chooses the behaviour, and chooses to repeat the behaviour.

the only thing that Skinner's pointing out, is why.

Edited May 1, 2014 by feral chile

[feral chile]

yea,but..

freedom is an unnatural condition to aim for isn't it. What other 'anything' (animal, plant...) exists for freedom? Or is that one of the things that separates us?

Calling it freedom is uniquely human, obviously, but all animals learn to adapt to their environment, maybe even adapt their environment to suit them, but as far as we know, only humans can consciously reflect on it.

I think of freedom as human consciousness of our place in the causal chain of events, for me that makes sense of a lot of conflicting things I believe.

What is freedom if it's not the conscious consideration of which action will produce which result? That's what we call choice, and it's consciousness of causation, and us as causal agents.

Edited May 1, 2014 by feral chile

[feral chile]

I still like this though

http://www.killstar.com/products/grump-cat-t-shirt-b

[feral chile]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brainsnacks/201404/the-real-reason-we-believe-what-we-believe

I admit to reactance bias

[feral chile]

Now then, what on earth can a 53 year old woman wear to a Nine Inch nails gig?

I'm getting my husband telling me not to dress like a 14 year old...rules out most of my wardrobe then.

(Actually, this does illustrate my conformity dilemma quite well)

Edited May 7, 2014 by feral chile

[Katster]

Now then, what on earth can a 53 year old woman wear to a Nine Inch nails gig?

Whatever she feels comfortable in.

[feral chile]

Whatever she feels comfortable in.

I think this bit is what I'm struggling with. I finally bought a toned down version of the type of thing I'd normally wear.

This is the direction I seem to be going - once a rocker always a rocker - but less of the rock rebel, maybe.

[feral chile]

well, you're not trying to piss anyone off anymore (by what you wear), are you?

are you?

you can still be a rocker

(I'll let you )

one of the (very) few benefits of growing old, not giving a shit about what anyone you don't know thinks.

(I don't know why I bothered so much when I was young, but against my better judgement, I probably did)

I never cared, and I didn't deliberately dress to be provocative, |I just liked certain styles. They seem a tad aggressive now though.

Think Suzi Quatro/Joan Jett in their 50s, and you can see why I need a restyle.

Edited May 12, 2014 by feral chile

[Katster]

I still have some clothes I have had since I was 16. I was once asked "do you just look for the weirdest thing in the shop and buy it?". I don't intentionally wear particularly 'different' stuff, but I certainly don't follow fashion. I just wear what I like. The only thing that's really changed with age is levels of comfort, and amount of material.

[feral chile]

I still have some clothes I have had since I was 16. I was once asked "do you just look for the weirdest thing in the shop and buy it?". I don't intentionally wear particularly 'different' stuff, but I certainly don't follow fashion. I just wear what I like. The only thing that's really changed with age is levels of comfort, and amount of material.

Yes, that's it exactly. I like unusual stuff.

[Katster]

Which is a good thing, whatever your age

[feral chile]

Going back to an earlier point in this thread about parenting, I found this article, discussing why punishment isn't a good option.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/peaceful-parents-happy-kids/201406/how-raise-moral-responsible-child-without-punishment

[atomised]

Some interesting points made in there.

[Katster]

There are some interesting points raised but is it really that difficult to work out that by hitting or otherwise punishing a child (who doesn't yet know any better) is probably not the best way of dealing with things? They are a person, a 'new' person yes but still someone you can discuss things with and reason with. Even when they are so young they don't yet fully understand language that doesn't mean the only other thing they understand will be punishment. My mum used to hit me when I had been naughty but there's no way I will be laying a finger on mine. I don't hit other people when they do something I feel is wrong - I talk to them and try to explain.

[feral chile]

There are some interesting points raised but is it really that difficult to work out that by hitting or otherwise punishing a child (who doesn't yet know any better) is probably not the best way of dealing with things? They are a person, a 'new' person yes but still someone you can discuss things with and reason with. Even when they are so young they don't yet fully understand language that doesn't mean the only other thing they understand will be punishment. My mum used to hit me when I had been naughty but there's no way I will be laying a finger on mine. I don't hit other people when they do something I feel is wrong - I talk to them and try to explain.

I just spent some time with my son's girlfriend's family, and her sister in law works with children. It was so lovely to see the interaction between their 18 month old and her dad - he was trying to put her socks on, and she was asserting her independence to take them off. After a few tries, he stopped physically putting them on her, and said 'what needs to happen before you can go on the swing?' and she thought for a moment, then said 'socks' and allowed him to finish dressing her.

So they both 'won' - she wasn't dominated, and she's being taught independent thought. All at 18 months!

He could have just said 'right - you're not going on the swing then' - punishment is about more than hitting,and discipline isn't synonymous with punishment.

The big danger, as I found out the hard way, is if you use punishment, the child then has nothing to lose, or gain - and you're left with a rebellious child, and either no authority, because you don't have any cards left to play, or, the punishment is escalated, and turns into a dangerous battle of wills.

That's not what parenting should be about, it should be about guiding a child to make sound decisions, even if sometimes they're not ones you'd make.

Edited June 16, 2014 by feral chile

[atomised]

Nice story feral Chile. Good to hear of parenting done well

[kaosmark2]

I just spent some time with my son's girlfriend's family, and her sister in law works with children. It was so lovely to see the interaction between their 18 month old and her dad - he was trying to put her socks on, and she was asserting her independence to take them off. After a few tries, he stopped physically putting them on her, and said 'what needs to happen before you can go on the swing?' and she thought for a moment, then said 'socks' and allowed him to finish dressing her.

So they both 'won' - she wasn't dominated, and she's being taught independent thought. All at 18 months!

He could have just said 'right - you're not going on the swing then' - punishment is about more than hitting,and discipline isn't synonymous with punishment.

The big danger, as I found out the hard way, is if you use punishment, the child then has nothing to lose, or gain - and you're left with a rebellious child, and either no authority, because you don't have any cards left to play, or, the punishment is escalated, and turns into a dangerous battle of wills.

That's not what parenting should be about, it should be about guiding a child to make sound decisions, even if sometimes they're not ones you'd make.

That's a great story.

I completely agree about the dangerous battle of wills though. I've only been in that situation from the child end, but I resolved if I ever have kids to make sure not to try and constantly assert a sense of superiority over them. I've spent the last 10 years of my life punishing myself because of the idea that if I'm a success then that reflects well on my parents in a way they don't deserve, and I don't want any child of mine to have even a fraction of the loathing I've developed.

[feral chile]

That's a great story.

I completely agree about the dangerous battle of wills though. I've only been in that situation from the child end, but I resolved if I ever have kids to make sure not to try and constantly assert a sense of superiority over them. I've spent the last 10 years of my life punishing myself because of the idea that if I'm a success then that reflects well on my parents in a way they don't deserve, and I don't want any child of mine to have even a fraction of the loathing I've developed.

Yes, once you know the knack, it's not that difficult - you just have to present the consequences in a way that rewards the behaviour the child needs to learn. They need to have something to gain, not be left with nothing to lose.

Edited June 16, 2014 by feral chile

[Katster]

Perfect example Feral Chile.

It's not rocket science. "You need to do this, if you want to do that", simple.

(She says - ha - I might change my mind once this bump arrives!!!)

[feral chile]

That's a great story.

I completely agree about the dangerous battle of wills though. I've only been in that situation from the child end, but I resolved if I ever have kids to make sure not to try and constantly assert a sense of superiority over them. I've spent the last 10 years of my life punishing myself because of the idea that if I'm a success then that reflects well on my parents in a way they don't deserve, and I don't want any child of mine to have even a fraction of the loathing I've developed.

any success you achieve could just as likely be in spite of your parents. I've wrestled with exactly the same thoughts for years.

I think I'm anti authority because of my upbringing, or downputting more like. I've tried really hard to be well balanced, in spite of everything, and to forgive my family for their weaknesses. They weren't evil, just clueless, and convinced that I'd take advantage if they showed any sign of weakness. Like affection, and praise.

It's benefitted me and hindered me equally, as I have little respect for, or fear of, authority.

Edited June 17, 2014 by feral chile