English perspective on Scots

[mrtourette]

there was a big campaign years ago, by the Welsh nashies, something to do with getting their Welsh passports stamped and validated by as many countries as possible, to prove that Wales was recognised as a country by everywhere except Britain.

sovereignty isn't the only criteria of being considered a country. (though Wales is officially a Principality, of course - but if we don't recognise the authority that's defined us as such, who's to say, Wales or others?)

[feral chile]

The future of humanity will be coming together, not becoming more isolated and divided.

That's progress.

[feral chile]

Is this one of those 'if the people consider themselves to be an independent country then you could argue that they are' arguments?

[Buff124]

Any group which speaks with one voice is like the sweetest tune reduced to a single note - Aristotle

[mrtourette]

Separate national identity, I'd say, rather than an independent country. Though of course, the Nashies were aiming for full independence.

[kaosmark2]

I can't speak on behalf of Scotland and while I'm sure that the people who made the comments in this thread said it with the best of intentions the idea that Scotland is just another northern accent and or/county of England is something that really annoys me and others from where I am from.We are not just an extension of England,we are our own country.If you had said "Britain" rather then "England" then that is fair enough but it's this attitude that 'Britain' is infact England that annoys a lot of us.

Case in point,Andy Murray or David Coultard back in the day in the press are "British" until they lose,then they are "plucky Scots".

[Buff124]

I'll leave you with this. A documentary made by and about the Saami of northern Scandinavia.

[mrtourette]

I'm sure that'll be very interesting although I fear not entirely relevant.

[eFestivals]

I can't speak on behalf of Scotland and while I'm sure that the people who made the comments in this thread said it with the best of intentions the idea that Scotland is just another northern accent and or/county of England is something that really annoys me and others from where I am from.We are not just an extension of England,we are our own country.If you had said "Britain" rather then "England" then that is fair enough but it's this attitude that 'Britain' is infact England that annoys a lot of us.

Case in point,Andy Murray or David Coultard back in the day in the press are "British" until they lose,then they are "plucky Scots".

Think of yourself however you like, but don't expect others to think much of it. Or does "Europe" not exist for the Scottish, only "Germany", "France", "Belgium", "The Netherlands", etc, etc, etc, etc.

Or alternatively...

http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html

[eFestivals]

It's you failing to recognise diversity by being hung up on geography, rather than respecting cultural differences/

because the same "respect" is given to English regions by all Welsh/Scots as you're saying should be given to Wales & Scotland, yeah?

There's a reason why it isn't, and it's nothing to do with racism. It's to do with regionalism, of which Wales and Scotland (and England) are not countries but are regions of the UK.

[eFestivals]

...and that is music to the ears of multi-national corporations.

says the man wanting independence* .... while insisting that an independent Scotland will be a part of the supra-nation called the EU.

You can't go saying the UK is a bad thing to Scotland on the same basis as you use to say the EU is vital to Scotland. That would be ... erm ... slightly insane.

(* my apologies if I have that wrong. It's a presumption that anyone would reasonably make of anyone giving a critic-free delivery of everything of the yes campaign).

Edited March 11, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

We can come together by respecting cultural identity, though.

"Identity" in all forms is utter bollocks tho.

For the last decade or more there been quite an attempt by politicians to meaningfully define a British identity, and of course it's failed - no more or less than there'd be a failure to meaningfully define a Scottish identity, a Welsh identity, a Yorkshire identity, a Norwich identity.

People play on identity to create divisions for their own benefit, not for the benefit of those who they identify.

[eFestivals]

Any group which speaks with one voice is like the sweetest tune reduced to a single note - Aristotle

Very nicely put.

Perhaps it's some words you should consider further?

[kaosmark2]

People play on identity to create divisions for their own benefit, not for the benefit of those who they identify.

[LondonTom]

From the Welsh political perspective, we have an undemocratic system, whereby if everyone in Wales voted for a particular party, we'd still be outnumbered by the English vote, and therefore wouldn't be represented.

[feral chile]

I wouldn't be dissing England for wanting regional representation though, I'd need to know more about it, but I'd respect the people involved enough to think they'd have a better insight than me.

Wales Scotland, England, Ireland, Great Britain, the UK, Europe, the West, etc. etc. - how can you say we don't have a sense of identity?

We're human. Humans are primates, primates are social animals. Therefore you have bonding with your social grouping, and the recognition/perception of outsider groups.

The whole concept of individuality is based on difference. And to have difference, you have to know what you're different from.

[Buff124]

We all have multiple identities. Genetic ones like Son, daughter, parent, sibling. Cultural and social ones like Christian, Socialist, Invernesian, Punk.

[Buff124]

says the man wanting independence* ....

[russycarps]

I wouldn't be dissing England for wanting regional representation though, I'd need to know more about it, but I'd respect the people involved enough to think they'd have a better insight than me.

Wales Scotland, England, Ireland, Great Britain, the UK, Europe, the West, etc. etc. - how can you say we don't have a sense of identity?

We're human. Humans are primates, primates are social animals. Therefore you have bonding with your social grouping, and the recognition/perception of outsider groups.

The whole concept of individuality is based on difference. And to have difference, you have to know what you're different from.

Edited March 11, 2014 by russycarps

[kaosmark2]

The concept that a scot is different to an english is madness. Any differences between people are nothing but artificial divisons invented by man. Like things like borders between countries. They dont exist in reality.

[eFestivals]

Wales Scotland, England, Ireland, Great Britain, the UK, Europe, the West, etc. etc. - how can you say we don't have a sense of identity?

Everyone has a sense of individuality.

But national or regional identities? Go on then, define one of them.

We're human. Humans are primates, primates are social animals. Therefore you have bonding with your social grouping, and the recognition/perception of outsider groups.

groups at all levels, with the more remote they are the less relevant they are. As soon as anyone gets outside their circle of close friends (and perhaps not even then), the amount of stuff they don't have in common with those others starts to grow at a massive rate.

If we wish to go with your idea, then England can be said to be tory.

Am *I* a tory? Am I fuck, and I resent the suggestion no less than a black man would resent the sort of racist stereotypes we've (mostly) stopped doing.

The whole concept of individuality is based on difference. And to have difference, you have to know what you're different from.

Individuality is fuck all to do with any national identity.

Edited March 12, 2014 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

This is why I much prefer the phrase "I'm from ...." than "I'm ... ish"

[eFestivals]

I'd be happy with a PR voting system introduced for UK elections. I'd be happier with a fiscally autonomous Scotland. I'd be happiest with Wales and Northern Ireland upgrading their Assemblies to Parliaments, with Westminster becoming the English Parliament AND dissolving the House of Lords AND the creation of a UK Commission composed of delegates from all four Parliaments, with representation proportionate to population size AND with each delegation having a right of veto.

Not much to ask for surely ?

Why should (say) Northern Ireland have a veto over what (say) Wales might want to do that doesn't impact back onto NI? They'd be nothing that was fair or proportionate about that.

I wholeheartedly agree with the sort of democratic ideal you're coming from (I agree with most of it on a theoretical level), but as soon as the small guy is able to control the destiny of the big guy, it's not democracy. It would replace with idea of Scotland being dominated by the English with the opposite of that - but to much worse effect, because no longer would the majority of people's views be what happened.

It ends up as anti-democracy, much worse than anything Scotland has had from the union.

[kaosmark2]

I've of the belief that Westminster should lose power in both directions, to the EU and to councils (or possibly a new intermediary level between parliament and councils). A policy that is good for London isn't necessarily good for Scotland, or Cornwall, or East Anglia, or the Leeds-Bradford conurbation. Greater devolution (no idea where boundaries should be drawn) to regions, but also greater faith in the EU.

It'll never happen of course, but scaled tiers with elections for each level seems like it would be a lot more representative.

[Spindles]

Disagree. An englishman would never have thought that what an egg was lacking was sausage meat wrapped around it.