English perspective on Scots

[Spindles]

Ah, fair comment. The sausage meat and breadcrumb covered snack market is one I keenly enjoy.

[eFestivals]

Ah, fair comment. The sausage meat and breadcrumb covered snack market is one I keenly enjoy.

it's a bit of a limited market tho, isn't it? Even tho it's been expanded to include those feckin' horrible 'savoury bars' in recent years.

So there you go - Scotland's economic future to replace it's soon-to-be-lost banking/finance sector (huge lost tax revenues too, the bit that no one ever mentions!) could be via the development of new sausage meat and breadcrumb covered snacks.

Vote yes Scotland, England has need of your new snacks.

Because I know this is an issue* that some can lose their rag about, I'll just point out that not every word of that post is meant seriously.

* I'm not talking about sausage meat and breadcrumb covered snacks.

[feral chile]

Everyone has a sense of individuality.

But national or regional identities? Go on then, define one of them.

groups at all levels, with the more remote they are the less relevant they are. As soon as anyone gets outside their circle of close friends (and perhaps not even then), the amount of stuff they don't have in common with those others starts to grow at a massive rate.

If we wish to go with your idea, then England can be said to be tory.

Am *I* a tory? Am I fuck, and I resent the suggestion no less than a black man would resent the sort of racist stereotypes we've (mostly) stopped doing.

Individuality is fuck all to do with any national identity.

Edited March 12, 2014 by feral chile

[russycarps]

Well from that it seems to me that you just want Wales to be treated equally to England, Scotland and n Ireland right? Wanting equality through out all parts of the uk (and the world!) is what we should all be campaigning for right?

I'm sure you don't think Wales deserves more than any other region. But that's exactly what the Scots are doing. Closing up their border and caring only for those within it.

To hell with the Welsh and the rest of us.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism

[russycarps]

Wtf is that smiley doing there!

[Spindles]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism

Sorry, just because it is annoying to click a mobile link

[Buff124]

Russy, what about this view of large/small ? Expressed in E F Schumacher's 'Small Is Beautiful' published in 1973

"I was brought up on an interpretation of history which suggested that in the beginning was the family; then families got together and formed tribes; then a number of tribes formed a nation; then a number of nations formed a 'Union' or 'United States' of this or that; and that finally, we could look forward to a single World Government.

Ever since I heard this plausible story I have taken a special interest in the process, but could not help noticing that the opposite seemed to be happening: a proliferation of nation states, The United Nations Organisation started some twenty-five years ago with some sixty members; now there are more than twice as many, and the number is still growing. In my youth, this process of proliferation was called 'Balkanisation' and was thought to be a very bad thing. Although everybody said it was bad, it has now been going on merrily for over fifty years, in most parts of the world. Large units tend to break up into smaller units.

While many theoreticians - who may not be too closely in touch with real life - are still engaging in the idolatry of large size, with practical people in the actual world there is a tremendous longing and striving to profit, a at all possible, from the convenience, humanity, and manageability of smallness. This, also, is a tendency which anyone can easily observe."

http://terebess.hu/keletkultinfo/Schumacher-Small-is-Beautiful.pdf

[eFestivals]

the Welsh have a strong history of radicalism and nonconformity

Do they? Or do they merely have a strong history of telling each other that they do?

Let me see ... what Welsh radicalim can I think of in my nearly-50 years? Well, I guess Kinnock was considered by some to be radical, before he showed himself to be a willing tool of the establishment.... and then there was nothing remotely radical left to mull over..... nonconformity? That extends only sbout as far as having a different sporting preference to the rest of Britian, i'd say.

So is that history truth or myth? In all real effects, it's myth.

I'm not trying to be harsh to anyone here btw. Feel free to come up with anything 'English' and I'll do no less of a demolishion.

It's impossible to define though.

Correct. And that's because it doesn't exist.

The best you can get to is racist stereotypes, and we don't do those any more even towards white people. Or at least, I thought we didn't.

But I am so proud to be Welsh, and grateful that I was born Welsh. And Wales does command my loyalty

I'd love to know what that actually means. I suspect it's merely meaningless empty nationalism.

[eFestivals]

Ever since I heard this plausible story I have taken a special interest in the process, but could not help noticing that the opposite seemed to be happening: a proliferation of nation states,

What you need to do is gain an understanding of what freedom is, to understand why that is happening and why it isn't anything about what you desperately want to believe it to be.

Why do you believe it to be what you do? You're being played by Scottish politicians no less than you believe that Westminster has played Scotland.

Scotland will not be the winner by this process. Only politicians will be, as they've always been.

In my youth, this process of proliferation was called 'Balkanisation' and was thought to be a very bad thing.

And yet Scotland likes of claim it has a better education system.

[Buff124]

And yet Scotland likes of claim it has a better education system.

[feral chile]

Well from that it seems to me that you just want Wales to be treated equally to England, Scotland and n Ireland right? Wanting equality through out all parts of the uk (and the world!) is what we should all be campaigning for right?

I'm sure you don't think Wales deserves more than any other region. But that's exactly what the Scots are doing. Closing up their border and caring only for those within it.

To hell with the Welsh and the rest of us.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism

Edited March 13, 2014 by feral chile

[feral chile]

Do they? Or do they merely have a strong history of telling each other that they do?

Let me see ... what Welsh radicalim can I think of in my nearly-50 years? Well, I guess Kinnock was considered by some to be radical, before he showed himself to be a willing tool of the establishment.... and then there was nothing remotely radical left to mull over..... nonconformity? That extends only sbout as far as having a different sporting preference to the rest of Britian, i'd say.

So is that history truth or myth? In all real effects, it's myth.

I'm not trying to be harsh to anyone here btw. Feel free to come up with anything 'English' and I'll do no less of a demolishion.

Correct. And that's because it doesn't exist.

The best you can get to is racist stereotypes, and we don't do those any more even towards white people. Or at least, I thought we didn't.

I'd love to know what that actually means. I suspect it's merely meaningless empty nationalism.

Edited March 13, 2014 by feral chile

[Buff124]

What you need to do is gain an understanding of what freedom is, to understand why that is happening

[eFestivals]

Define freedom - chaos, anarchy, lack of responsibility ? Everything is bound by one set of rules or another. Even chaos. Think fractals.

what I was getting at is that freedom is something that is created from the ground upwards. You cannot be given your freedom, you have to take it for yourself.

This is why there's been a fragmentation of (some) nations in the last 50 years. It's been people taking their freedom for themselves for the very first time, with their first opportunities to do so.

Does the same apply with Scotland? I can certainly see that there's a perception of needing to do that, but I'm far from convinced that it's anything real. Because back in my youth the same idea was almost non-existent, and there's not been greater oppression put upon Scotland since then to genuinely create a need for freedom.

From where I'm sat it seems to be the case that the people of Scotland are being preyed upon by a particular political class for the benefit of that political class and not the people. The idea of a lack of freedom has been cooked up by those politicians, and they're using whatever political strings they can find to jerk the people of Scotland around to do their bidding.

After all, it appears to be the case that only around one third feel 'oppressed' enough to want to "break free" - but with such a small proportion having those feelings it's far more likely to be about there being disadvantaged within society (which exists within all societies, and will in an iScotland too) than about any past lack of freedoms and taking for it themselves now.

Sure, some policies of the UK govt have not worked well in Scotland, but nothing different applies for any policy for some parts of this country - and nothing different will apply within an iScotland for some policies onto some places too.

Scotland doesn't have freedoms it needs to obtain. It instead seems to me that the yes campaign have seen the money and it's nothing more than an appeal to people's greed for the enrichment of a few otherwise-minor politicians.

There's nothing unqiue about Scotland with that of course. The w*nkers will always use and abuse others for their own benefit.

[russycarps]

what I was getting at is that freedom is something that is created from the ground upwards. You cannot be given your freedom, you have to take it for yourself.

This is why there's been a fragmentation of (some) nations in the last 50 years. It's been people taking their freedom for themselves for the very first time, with their first opportunities to do so.

Does the same apply with Scotland? I can certainly see that there's a perception of needing to do that, but I'm far from convinced that it's anything real. Because back in my youth the same idea was almost non-existent, and there's not been greater oppression put upon Scotland since then to genuinely create a need for freedom.

From where I'm sat it seems to be the case that the people of Scotland are being preyed upon by a particular political class for the benefit of that political class and not the people. The idea of a lack of freedom has been cooked up by those politicians, and they're using whatever political strings they can find to jerk the people of Scotland around to do their bidding.

After all, it appears to be the case that only around one third feel 'oppressed' enough to want to "break free" - but with such a small proportion having those feelings it's far more likely to be about there being disadvantaged within society (which exists within all societies, and will in an iScotland too) than about any past lack of freedoms and taking for it themselves now.

Sure, some policies of the UK govt have not worked well in Scotland, but nothing different applies for any policy for some parts of this country - and nothing different will apply within an iScotland for some policies onto some places too.

Scotland doesn't have freedoms it needs to obtain. It instead seems to me that the yes campaign have seen the money and it's nothing more than an appeal to people's greed for the enrichment of a few otherwise-minor politicians.

There's nothing unqiue about Scotland with that of course. The w*nkers will always use and abuse others for their own benefit.

[Buff124]

Freedom versus Order, Its as old as the hills, that one. Dionysus versus Appollo

Apollo Dionysus

sun earth

ego id

psyche eros

stoic Epicurean

mind heart

reason emotion

thinking feeling

order chaos

restraint excess

male female

hierarchy equality

science art

system spontaneity

compulsiveness impulsiveness

city country

classicism romanticism

civilization nature

EDIT: tidied up the lists. Is that compulsiveness ?

Edited March 14, 2014 by Buff124

[eFestivals]

Freedom versus Order, Its as old as the hills, that one.

Or you missed the point entirely. One or the other.

[Buff124]

Sorry Neil. You know you're dealing with a happy idiot (who struggles for the legal tender). Sorry Jackson.

But its a struggle to apply the "We Want Oor Freedom" template to the IndyRef debate. Sure, there are a group within the SNP nicknamed the Fundies (fundamentalists - all or nothing etc) but they were overwhelmed by numbers of former Labour members disaffected by stuff like the Iraq War. A common phrase at the time was 'I didn't leave the Labour Party, the Labour Party left me' . The former LP members form part of the dominant group in the SNP, nicknamed the Grads (gradualists).

The Fundies (and even that name is an over simplification of how this older group sees independence) are getting on a bit. The Gradualists are a couple of generations younger, and as their name implies, they're content to play the long game.

Their analysis is that the political direction of travel in the majority of the UK is ever further to the right. The gulf will widen. Outright independence is one of a number of positive objectives. These objectives are pursued in order to move [edit: the governance of] Scotland to a more left wing value system.

A poll this week asked for preferences on the Alternative Member vote in the next ScotParl election. Tories come in at 11% , pretty much where they've been for the last 25 years.

The regional list vote was SNP 40%, Labour 28%, Conservative 11%, Liberal Democrat 7%, Scottish Green Party 8% and UKIP 5%

http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Daily-Record-Tables-Full.pdf

Edited March 14, 2014 by Buff124

[eFestivals]

Tories come in at 11% , pretty much where they've been for the last 25 years.

Do you think tory-thinking people have disappeared within Scotland, or might it be that only tory voting has disappeared within Scotland?

I'm not sure if you're aware of the part the SNP played in putting Thatcher in power and how that hurt them hard at the ballot box, and how they recovered from there? If not it's worth knowing and if so it's perhaps worth reconsidering cos it's the driver at the heart of the issue.

That's not me trying to say that Scotland isn't more to the left in recent decades than the rest of the UK, but I don't see that as what is being played out here.

The guy at the head of your country is Murdoch's puppet FFS!!

How much different is he going to *actually* deliver than those hated English tories?

[Buff124]

Do you think tory-thinking people have disappeared within Scotland, or might it be that only tory voting has disappeared within Scotland? /quote]

Non-voting Tories would still be vastly outnumbered by non-voting Labourites in Scotland. Voter apathy cuts both ways, surely ?

Yes I am , and no its not. I am slightly staggered that the Tartan Tories cliché still gets trotted out. I haven't heard up here for years. Hypothetically, how long would Callaghan's administration have tottered on if the SNP group had stayed ? Let's assume it lasted a full term. Then what ? A landslide for moneratists ideology. History is full of ifs and buts, so this bit of the debate go on for some time.

I haven't bought a newspaper for some time now, and rarely watch TV. There's plenty other sources of factual information. Leaving that aside,

1) if Salmond is Murdoch's puppet, then he must have a masochistic streak. Name one pro-independence tabloid, broadsheet, or TV channel.

2) I know I mention David Cameron now and again, but I don't think I am obsessed as you are about Alexander Salmond. He might be the conductor, but he's not the orchestra. Or the audience for that matter. You've mentioned how politicans are playing the situation, well yes but please balance that against the fact that Scotland has a reasonably sophisticated electorate - there's much evidence that voters know how to vote tactically. Voting in elections that use the modified D'Honte method can do that. It's a caricature to frame it as a buncha yokels being taken in by some snake-oil salesman

quote name="eFestivals" post="4274785" timestamp="1394823245"] How much different is he going to *actually* deliver than those hated English tories?

[eFestivals]

Yes I am , and no its not. I am slightly staggered that the Tartan Tories cliché still gets trotted out. I haven't heard up here for years. Hypothetically, how long would Callaghan's administration have tottered on if the SNP group had stayed ? Let's assume it lasted a full term. Then what ? A landslide for moneratists ideology. History is full of ifs and buts, so this bit of the debate go on for some time.

"tartan tories" was nothing that was in my mind, tho no doubt them getting that label had a bearing on what came after - and it was the what came after that's the important part.

Did the SNP play a part in putting Thatcher in power? Yep. Did them playing that part hit them hard at the ballot box? Yep.

It's been a remarkable political recovery for the SNP from that low, yeah? THAT'S the important bit - the how they did it. By playing the people of Scotland.

Here's a topical example of how that plays out....

Yesterday, Teresa May spouted some words about the possibility of a land border between rUK and iScotland, to control immigration into rUK.

I've not see much of the words she used, and I've little doubt there was a pro-union purpose to her speaking those words, and no doubt her stretching some presumptions to the limit to give the harshest examples possible.

But....

There's a solid basis to what she said. iScotland plans to have a different more-open immigration policy to rUK (it's in the white paper), which means that rUK might feel the need to implement a border to stop a flood of immigrants that don't meet the rUK immigration rules.

And yet I've read hundreds and hundreds of comments (quite possibly 1000s) on newspaper websites from people claiming to live in Scotland (of course, i can't know if they really do), who were claiming an intention prior to May's words of voting both yes and no, who all - without exception* - think it's bullshit, bullying and bluster and that there could never be that land border.

(* I can only say what I've seen)

They raise that citizens of iScotland would still be citizens of rUK (true, btw). They raise that iScotland within the EU "won't have to" implement the EU's common travel area (it could be either, we'll have to see how that plays out). They raise that there's no land border between Northern Ireland and the republic (true).

But not once does anyone recognise the right of other sovereign states to act in a sovereign manner by acting in their own interests and not in iScotland's interests. Apparently, rUK is obliged to do everything that iScotland wants without question because otherwise they're bullies.

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about that, but I'm firmly convinced that lovely Alex wants a no vote as much as any unionist.

1) if Salmond is Murdoch's puppet, then he must have a masochistic streak. Name one pro-independence tabloid, broadsheet, or TV channel.

you're missing the point. It's not the media that Murdoch wants, it's the country. And he's got it. No more or less than he got to own the UK until dizzy Dave fucked it all up for him.

It doesn't take an Englishman, a tory or an Etonian to sell out to big business interests.

2) I know I mention David Cameron now and again, but I don't think I am obsessed as you are about Alexander Salmond. He might be the conductor, but he's not the orchestra. Or the audience for that matter. You've mentioned how politicans are playing the situation, well yes but please balance that against the fact that Scotland has a reasonably sophisticated electorate - there's much evidence that voters know how to vote tactically. Voting in elections that use the modified D'Honte method can do that. It's a caricature to frame it as a buncha yokels being taken in by some snake-oil salesman

He's selling you a currency union that you can't have in the way he sells it.

He's selling you an immigration policy that you can't have in the way he sells it.

He's selling you a fiscal policy that you can't have in the way he sells it.

He's selling you a sovereign fund dream that you can't have in the way he sells it.

He's selling you a public services policy that you can't have in the way he sells it.

He's selling you a tax cutting policy that you can't have in the way he sells it.

He's selling you an EU policy that you can't have in the way he sells it.

He's selling you an debt-free Scotland you can't have in the way he sells it.

He's selling you an debt policy that you can't have in the way he sells it.

He's selling you an EU policy that you can't have in the way he sells it.

And no one else (that's taken notice of) is stepping forwards with alternatives that you might have.

Meanwhile, word in newspaper comments is that there's no positive thing to support the union, and that the groundswell of growing support for independence is overwhelming .... while the polls show no such thing.

If "Scotland has a reasonably sophisticated electorate", then how could Salmond's ideas (cos they're specifically his, not the wider 'yes' campaign's, which offers no alternatives) get the support of the people, unless those people are going to vote 'no'?

[eFestivals]

"He" again. Think your over personalising it. Really.

Am I? Then whose policies are they in the white paper that is the vision for an iScotland the country would be voting for?

They're not the policies that Greens would implement; they're not the policies that sLabour would implement - both have distinct differences, that aren't the white paper.

So are you saying that the white paper can be ripped up and ignored? If so, what is Scotland voting for instead of that?

Edited March 15, 2014 by eFestivals

[Buff124]

There's a solid basis to what she said. iScotland plans to have a different more-open immigration policy to rUK (it's in the white paper), which means that rUK might feel the need to implement a border to stop a flood of immigrants that don't meet the rUK immigration rules.

I'm trying to imagine that scenario. The media outcry, that sort of thing... apart from that I'm guessing most asylum seekers arrive in Scotland via the south ?

And yet I've read hundreds and hundreds of comments (quite possibly 1000s) on newspaper websites from people claiming to live in Scotland

Were the commentators anonymous ? How many commentators posted multiple comments ? Scotsman comments sections are part of the 'air war', at least the Herald makes users give a genuine name.

But not once does anyone recognise the right of other sovereign states to act in a sovereign manner by acting in their own interests and not in iScotland's interests.

Neighbouring countries tend to have a bit of a closer relationship. North and South Korea excepted acourse.

you're missing the point. It's not the media that Murdoch wants, it's the country. And he's got it. No more or less than he got to own the UK until dizzy Dave fucked it all up for him.

So...Rupert Murdoch owns Scotland. I hadn't realised that. Thanks.

If "Scotland has a reasonably sophisticated electorate", then how could Salmond's ideas (cos they're specifically his, not the wider 'yes' campaign's, which offers no alternatives) get the support of the people, unless those people are going to vote 'no'?

There's a few alternatives kicking around in here -

http://reidfoundation.org/common-weal/

[Buff124]

"Did the SNP play a part in putting Thatcher in power? Yep. Did them playing that part hit them hard at the ballot box? Yep."

One may as well ask whether Trade Union strike action during the 1979 Winter of Discontent played a part in putting Monetarist Ideology (Reaganomics, anyone ?) into power.

One may as well ask whether the Sun's "Crisis ? What Crisis ?" headline played a part as well. I think Supertramp have to put their hands up at this point too.

Edited to take advantage of tenuous link opportunity

Edited March 15, 2014 by Buff124

[Buff124]

Feeling guilty about derailing the thread. A lot of the above should be in Dirty Independence, sorry OP.

Here's something to observe, and perhaps comment on. Its the nearest thing to soul music that there is in Scotland. Its so primal. Or maybe its just a big droning cacophany.

Apologies Metallimuse, I know that Uist sings far better, but this clip comes in at a handy 3.30 mins.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Buff124