Football 2014/15

[mrtourette]

Who has a better frontline then?

Messi, Neymar, Suarez

Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, Rodriquez

Will those four all play together?

[Gucci Piggy]

Will those four all play together?

I assume so.

Alonso Kroos

Bale Rodriguez Ronaldo

Benzema

Which leaves Di Maria, Modric, Isco and Khedira on the bench. Jesus.

[mrtourette]

Ah OK, I envisiged something diifferent when I read 'frontline'. More like front two lines.

[eFestivals]

It's not all about form though, a player who plays crap and then scores can be more valuable in a tight game than one who plays ok but doesn't.

It's not all about form, but it is all about your opinion of their form.

Because your opinion of what they should do is more meaningful than what they can do, of course.

[pink_triangle]

He hasn't produced the same form for England as he has done for club, can't argue against that but some of the points made on here are laughable. Gerrard was often asked to perform a different role for England than he did for LFC, he did it OK without being great in most games. Many players do not play to their club level when playing for England, is that because they don't give a fuck about England or that there is something wrong with the way players are used for England.

I wouldn't ever say he didn't give a fuck, he just never reached his potential. Maybe Liverpool suit him and he would have been the same at another club, we will never know.

Position is a factor, but also a bit of a cop out. Many international players play out of position and adapt better. I once heard hamman say in Germany you play wherever your picked and learn to excel in that role. I often felt with Gerrard he had a bit of a defeatist attitude in terms of the position.

[eFestivals]

What your effectively saying is on a discussion about opinion, my opinion has no merit because it's an opinion.

No, I'm saying that you only get to say he's not reached his potential because you over-rate his potential in the first place.

If you rated him on what he actually does rather than what you would like him to do then you get to find out that he's not as good as you thought he was, which takes away the reason you have for slagging him off.

You've built him up, and then you've knocked him down again.

But you didn't build him up on his capabilities (as proven on the pitch), you've built him up on the capabilities you think he should have.

Edited July 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[pink_triangle]

But based on the fact they lost to England 5-1.............A result that was a freak. As that German team only lost that one game and made it to a final of a WC.

I think the fact they weren't a great side was an afterthought, my main point was it was a qualifier, where regardless of result there's another chance. Score a vital goal in a knockout and the teams tournament ends.

[eFestivals]

Ironic, given that Lampard's strike rate for England was pretty woeful (didn't he hold the World Cup record for most shots without scoring at one point?).

he still does, and every single shot was from 25+ yards.

Tho I think he managed one from inside the box this WC. Very well done Frank.

[eFestivals]

I think the fact they weren't a great side was an afterthought, my main point was it was a qualifier, where regardless of result there's another chance. Score a vital goal in a knockout and the teams tournament ends.

are you sure that not all of your comments were afterthoughts?

If a player always plays poorly it's because they're a poor player. Now there's a thought.

[pink_triangle]

Ironic, given that Lampard's strike rate for England was pretty woeful (didn't he hold the World Cup record for most shots without scoring at one point?).

I get your point, I guess it depends on how you value players. If Lamaprd scoring in the knock-out rounds of an ultimately unsuccessful tournament is more important than the play that got the team to that point then so be it. It just seems a bit closed-minded to me to only focus on the stats rather than actually considering the (unfortunately unquantifiable) effects and impact in other areas.

You need players to get you there, but also to make the difference when you are in the business end. For many of England's exits 1 goal extra scored and they progress, but the goal never came. As I said earlier people will only remember 1 think that Goetze did in the world cup.

[pink_triangle]

It's not all about form, but it is all about your opinion of their form.

Because your opinion of what they should do is more meaningful than what they can do, of course.

I'm starting to get so confused, that I'm not sure what I'm arguing. While I never expected Gerrard to win a tournament single handed like maradonna. I think he had the ability to stand out above England's other midfielders in the big knockout games. I dont believe he did (although your entitled to think differently). In a tight game, that improvement could have made the difference. As I said I'm sure if you asked the player, he would feel he could have done more.

[pink_triangle]

I assume so.

Alonso Kroos

Bale Rodriguez Ronaldo

Benzema

Which leaves Di Maria, Modric, Isco and Khedira on the bench. Jesus.

I have a funny feeling that Rodriguez may flop at Madrid. Great world cup, but always dangerous to read a lot into 4 games.

[mrtourette]

Neil is technically correct (the best kind of correct) - we only judge someone or something to be a disappointment or failure based on our expectations of them/it and whether they/it achieved our expected standards or not. However I don't really see what's wrong with that. Without a pre-defined set of targets set out at the start of his career to mark his progress against there is no other way, and unless Neil is saying that the very process of assessing someone's performance against expectations is wrong (for example should we be sticking to good/bad rather than a success/failure?) then of course we are going to judge a player in that way. It's a personal opinion based on each individual's expectations and the following assessment of his performance against those.

Edited July 22, 2014 by mrtourette

[Andre91]

Who has a better frontline then?

Messi, Neymar, Suarez

Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, Rodriquez

Real Madrid for me, purely because last season showed that Ronaldo, Benzema and Bale works very well. Adding James to that makes it even stronger.

[eFestivals]

While I never expected Gerrard to win a tournament single handed like maradonna. I think he had the ability to stand out above England's other midfielders in the big knockout games. I dont believe he did (although your entitled to think differently).

overall, he very definitely has - which is why he's been the constant while others have not.

All I'm seeing is that he's not hugely better than those others, particularly in more recent years when he's been past his best.

In a tight game, that improvement could have made the difference. As I said I'm sure if you asked the player, he would feel he could have done more.

Only if he's capable of making that much of an improvement to the team's performances - and he's shown that he isn't.

So, as I say, the issue is your rating of him above his capabilities. He's not lived up to YOUR expectations, but that's not his fault it's yours.

[Gucci Piggy]

Neil is technically correct (the best kind of correct) - we only judge someone or something to be a disappointment or failure based on our expectations of them/it and whether they/it achieved our expected standards or not. However I don't really see what's wrong with that. Without a pre-defined set of targets set out at the start of his career to mark his progress against there is no other way, and unless Neil is saying that the very process of assessing someone's performance against expectations is wrong (for example should we be sticking to good/bad rather than a success/failure?) then of course we are going to judge a player in that way. It's a personal opinion based on each individual's expectations and the following assessment of his performance against those.

Yeah but he's speaking as though Gerrard has never performed better than he did for England, and therefore we shouldn't expect him to perform well for England.

All I (and I think most others) am saying is that the standard of his international performances compared to his club performances are lower than most footballers, and therefore it's been disappointing.

Maybe Gerrard doesn't have the capacity to do it at international level, but when he's done it in the Champions League that does seem odd.

[Gucci Piggy]

I have a funny feeling that Rodriguez may flop at Madrid. Great world cup, but always dangerous to read a lot into 4 games.

Yep, very possible, and I don't think I'd seen him play before the World Cup, so that's all I can judge him on.

I do imagine that's what their intended starting lineup will be, though, after how much they've shelled out for him, but if he doesn't perform they haven't got much of a problem bringing in Di Maria (for example) to replace him.

I think it's a little unfair on Di Maria, though, as he was incredible for them last season. Maybe a move away will be best for him.

[eFestivals]

Neil is technically correct (the best kind of correct) - we only judge someone or something to be a disappointment or failure based on our expectations of them/it and whether they/it achieved our expected standards or not. However I don't really see what's wrong with that. Without a pre-defined set of targets set out at the start of his career to mark his progress against there is no other way, and unless Neil is saying that the very process of assessing someone's performance against expectations is wrong (for example should we be sticking to good/bad rather than a success/failure?) then of course we are going to judge a player in that way. It's a personal opinion based on each individual's expectations and the following assessment of his performance against those.

I'm not saying that assessing someone's performance against expectations is wrong.

I am saying is that if your expectations are wrong (too great), you'll always be disappointed in the performance.

If you're mostly ending up disappointed as PT appears to be saying he almost-always was, that tells you more about the expectations than it does the player.

[eFestivals]

Yeah but he's speaking as though Gerrard has never performed better than he did for England, and therefore we shouldn't expect him to perform well for England.

All I (and I think most others) am saying is that the standard of his international performances compared to his club performances are lower than most footballers, and therefore it's been disappointing.

Maybe Gerrard doesn't have the capacity to do it at international level, but when he's done it in the Champions League that does seem odd.

If you drive a car well, it says nothing of how well you might ride a motorbike.

In general (and allowing for fading with age), Gerrard has done OK for England, better than the other midfielders. Likewise, he's made a greater CL impact than those other midfielders.

He's shown he's better than most, and done it consistently (about as consistently as most players who have good and bad games), both for Liverpool and England.

He's lived up to his level. He's not Ronaldo tho.

If you don't think he's lived up to his level, you've got his level wrong.

Edited July 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[Gucci Piggy]

If you drive a car well, it says nothing of how well you might ride a motorbike.

In general (and allowing for fading with age), Gerrard has done OK for England, better than the other midfielders. Likewise, he's made a greater CL impact than those other midfielders.

He's shown he's better than most, and done it consistently (about as consistently as most players who have good and bad games), both for Liverpool and England.

He's lived up to his level. He's not Ronaldo tho.

If you don't think he's lived up to his level, you've got his level wrong.

I agree he's been better than most, and I don't think he's been the failure that some seem to. I just think he's been below average in translating his quality over to international matches.

[Essex_George]

Maybe Gerrard doesn't have the capacity to do it at international level, but when he's done it in the Champions League that does seem odd.

Maybe because he had better players around him when playing in the champions league?

[Gucci Piggy]

Maybe because he had better players around him when playing in the champions league?

Well if we take the 2005 Champions League win as an example, when he played brilliantly, then no, he had much worse players around him, and against harder opposition than most of the times he's played for England.

[strummer77]

Not many players have played as well. I'd argue Scholes, Gerrard, Rooney, Lampard etc have all fallen just short. But then I think that may say more about the team's set-up than the individuals...

[ThomThomDrum]

I think the fact they weren't a great side was an afterthought, my main point was it was a qualifier, where regardless of result there's another chance. Score a vital goal in a knockout and the teams tournament ends.

Yeah, but lets consider the opportunity to play in an actual knockout match at international level. That is a very very rare thing. In Gerards time in the England set up they have only played in 7 such games and I dont think it can be argued that England lost any of those knock out games when they should have clearly won them.

Knockout games are not the only important international games and he has delivered in a few important international games whether folk on here want to believe it or not. The Germany 2001 game and the USA 2010 are two in which he scored very important goals for England.

Lets also not forget his goal against Sweden in 2006 helped England avoid Germany in the knockouts and so they could play the easier team in Ecuador in the last 16.

Im in no way saying Gerrard was something super in an England shirt, but he was in no way totally useless, and was very much extremely important on occasion.

[Essex_George]

Well if we take the 2005 Champions League win as an example, when he played brilliantly, then no, he had much worse players around him, and against harder opposition than most of the times he's played for England.

I was thinking of that team and still think it is better than Englands, Djimi Traore included!