The Rise and Rise of UKIP

[viberunner]

and the advantage of streaming over complete-separation (grammars) is that it's streamed by subject - so someone in (say) the top group for maths might also be in (say) the bottom stream for English. It gives each and every kid the chance to excel in the subjects they're good at, rather than throwing 70% of kids away as useless at everything.

It's a utopian dream but the reality, that I saw, is the same kids in the top classes of Maths were also the same kids in the top classes of English and the top classes of the Sciences. They were the ones to go onto A-Levels.

There will be some exceptions of course, but for the most part the able and streamed will herd together, different teachers for the able, Grammar Schools in all but name.

[Big Vern]

Because what we need is lots of OK kids going up against the rest of the worlds brilliant kids ?

You call success throttling back our best students to slightly improve the future shelf stackers?

I disagree with that concept of success....

I think your wrong full stop. Most schools deliver the "expected progress" of students. I very much doubt there is a case to say schools are failing children. The usual social & economic backgrounds of the students are almost still going to be the overriding factor in children failing to improve their marks.

Ultimately not every kid is going to be academic and they don't need to be either. Its a waste to over target these children. I was listening to five live last week saying firms are struggling to recruit brick layers in London. You can get £800-1000 a week in London to do it. Its probably more valuable to start giving children more options than aiming to go University. That's all it seems geared up to do now.

There is too much academic pressure on kids to go to Uni now and apprenticeships desperately need to come back. We have uni leavers coming for job interviews, with degrees in shit shovelling but they expect a leg up because they've been to uni. Many of them have terrible grammar and basic arithmetic troubles and simply cannot do basic admin functions. They also cannot take any criticism, many start crying as soon as you try to address their failings.

Meanwhile we are paying skilled immigrant workforces £1000pw to lay bricks.

I'd much rather have had my children leave school at 16, get a good trade and be earning 50-60k with a trade for life, than go to uni and come away with a pointless degree in a field they are never going to work in and a shit load of debt.

[feral chile]

It's a utopian dream but the reality, that I saw, is the same kids in the top classes of Maths were also the same kids in the top classes of English and the top classes of the Sciences. They were the ones to go onto A-Levels.

There will be some exceptions of course, but for the most part the able and streamed will herd together, different teachers for the able, Grammar Schools in all but name.

I had this actually said to me by my children's junior school teachers - In Cardiff, you have inner city versus leafy suburbs, and class structure and schools to match - she suggested allowing my children to go to the local comp where they'd get special treatment because they were able children and came from parents who were interested in education.

My own experience - I think it depends a lot more on confidence, ambition and social skills. Which tend to come more easily to middle class families.

edit: I had to go in and edit this post, because my typo read idle class instead of middle class oops!

Edited December 14, 2014 by feral chile

[5co77ie]

Edited December 14, 2014 by 5co77ie

[grumpyhack]

What citizenship do you hold 5co77ie - if you don't mind me asking?

[Big Vern]

Those aren't the only options though. I think encouraging kids to take a degree in something that they might be interested in, whether it helps them get a 'decent' job or not would be good. But then we'd have to go back to when further education didn't mean taking out a loan that will be hanging around for years to come....

it's a bit fucked for now

Not everyone would be happy to be leaving school with not much more than a future in bricklaying. Which isn't to say it isn't a skill worth learning.

What if your child wants more than a good trade that pays well?

One of the main problems (as I see it) with the education system, is that it is only geared up for getting good A levels to move on to a degree, any degree at uni. I agree that this shouldn't have such an all or nothing perspective. League tables are also part of the problem, in as much as the main way of gauging how good a school is, is how 'well' the kids do in exam. The same exams whose main purpose is to get them to uni.

Sorry, but I think that children need guidance as they often don't know what they want and the option to go to uni for a few years to avoid having to enter the grown up world of work, taxes, bills etc is a great pull for many. When they finally leave uni, especially those with a piss poor degree, who then go on to a job that they could have been doing since 16, they then have the maturity to realise how much debt theyve got to get rid of, making standard pay rises pointless as they just have to pay more debt off and harder for them to get on the property ladder etc.

I just think that they need to be made fully aware of the pit falls of all choices, as well as the benefits, but youth will inevitably make them focus mainly on the good times of uni. I only have this point of view from the many uni leavers we have interviewed and taken on, in a job they could have been doing since they were 16 as the degree they came away from uni with has no relevance to the job they end up doing and I havent seen that uni has developed them in any particularly positive ways, it just seems to have allowed them to continue in childhood until their early 20s , all imo of course.

[wee_insomniac]

Another UKIP candidate has been forced to resign because of homophobic and racist comments in a recorded phone call...

Just another nail in the coffin hopefully!

[wee_insomniac]

Sorry, but I think that children need guidance as they often don't know what they want and the option to go to uni for a few years to avoid having to enter the grown up world of work, taxes, bills etc is a great pull for many. When they finally leave uni, especially those with a piss poor degree, who then go on to a job that they could have been doing since 16, they then have the maturity to realise how much debt theyve got to get rid of, making standard pay rises pointless as they just have to pay more debt off and harder for them to get on the property ladder etc.

I just think that they need to be made fully aware of the pit falls of all choices, as well as the benefits, but youth will inevitably make them focus mainly on the good times of uni. I only have this point of view from the many uni leavers we have interviewed and taken on, in a job they could have been doing since they were 16 as the degree they came away from uni with has no relevance to the job they end up doing and I havent seen that uni has developed them in any particularly positive ways, it just seems to have allowed them to continue in childhood until their early 20s , all imo of course.

Not only that, but fewer and fewer graduates are planning to pay off their student loans, which is becoming more and more difficult as fees increase. I'm pretty sure that the student loan company is going to go bust. It just can't keep going the way it is...

What's also becoming normal is that a lot of jobs now ask for applicants to have a degree, when it's not always essential. It was ridiculous to aim for 50% of school leavers to go to university and now the country is paying the price.

Yes, it should be accessible to everyone, but the places should only go to those who genuinely want to study rather than just rushing into it because it's the next logical step after A Levels.

[feral chile]

I havent seen that uni has developed them in any particularly positive ways, it just seems to have allowed them to continue in childhood until their early 20s , all imo of course.

Maybe it depends n your situation before you go. I went a few years later than most, and already had a husband, 3 children and a mortgage.

Uni completely opened my mind. It certainly didn't lead to a better job, but a better life...I think so, it was definitely a life changer.

[bunique]

Another UKIP candidate has been forced to resign because of homophobic and racist comments in a recorded phone call...

Just another nail in the coffin hopefully!

I'm less sure of that. I think the views expressed are held by a not insignificant proportion of the population who may also be moved to turnout to vote for someone "like them"

[philipsteak]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/poll-shows-voters-believe-ukip-is-to-the-left-of-the-tories-9923416.html

What the fucking fuck. I mean for fucks sake. How fucking stupid. You know what, fuck it. Vote them in. We deserve each other.

[midnight]

Left of the Tories. It would be funny it it wasn't so shocking.

There's streaming still?

I think it is now called "ability groups". And starts with 5 year olds (at my son's school, anyway).

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/sep/25/school-streaming-pupils-english-primaries

Through extended family, I happen to be quite well informed about the French & German education systems. In both countries, "ability grouping" at school is considered detrimental to the overall education result and frowned upon, so state schools don't use this method. Mind, what to these foreigners know..... though both countries usually do well in comparative studies on world wide education results.

Edited December 15, 2014 by midnight

[eFestivals]

You mean by that wanting and expecting the taxes they've paid to be usefully used to educate their children?

The selfish bastards!

Selfish bastards: exactly that!

Because it's being paid for by taking away resources from those who actually need them, to give to those who merely want them.

The Thatcherites in Scotland think that's a left wing policy.

Edited December 15, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Headache? Tense nervous headache? Take Anadin.

Warning: may cause drowsiness, homophobic rants, and racism.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/14/ukip-kerry-smith-quits-election-candidate

[gary1979666]

Hmmm missed the big education debate by not checking over the weekend.

I have to say I'm in two minds in the grammar school debate - I'd like everyone to be able to get a good education, but also think the 'good' pupils need to be pushed more and more and the current system doesn't really allow for that. In principle streaming should work, but can undertstand the social side of things that Viberunner talks about.

My background was state school up to about 9, when I'd finished the maths and english programs for the school with 2 years to go - the teachers struggled with keeping me occupied (I'm far from a kid genius - bright, but not super smart) and it was then my parents sent me to a private grammar school - was a much better environment for me - challenged me and helped me achieve a lot more of my potential. If the state sector had been able to do that, they'd have kept me there, as they're not well off. I forget who was saying that too much time is focused on bright kids, but my experience is far from that. Barry's right - we need to push the brighter ones so we can compete in the wider world.

As for Uni, it was a great experience, but not essential - the target of 50% is crazy. Some people I know see holding a degree as some sort of exemption from doing certain types of work, like they're above it. I guess it masks the unemployment figures a bit, but it really just creates a group of people who think they need 'graduate jobs'.

[5co77ie]

What citizenship do you hold 5co77ie - if you don't mind me asking?

I was dual - but was then asked to do conscription in the Chilean army, I didn't fancy being posted to some remote outpost in the Andes for a couple of years, and avoided that by getting full UK citizenship.

However as I'm not born here, have had citizenship granted in the last 30 years - If the Nazi scum were to get in I would be be reclassified as a migrant (see the London Manifesto link in my post above) and able re-apply for permanent leave to remain, as would my daughter who is born here.

It's likely we would fail on the main criteria however - as neither of us were privately educated, or have private medicare - and that's the main criteria to be allowed to be granted 'migrant status'

Though on the plus side, there is a chance, as I'm not born here, I may also get to wear a nice star, and get to take a free communal shower!

[5co77ie]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/poll-shows-voters-believe-ukip-is-to-the-left-of-the-tories-9923416.html

What the fucking fuck. I mean for fucks sake. How fucking stupid. You know what, fuck it. Vote them in. We deserve each other.

Isn't this slightly to cock journalism? The way I read it it says most people think Labour are closest to themselves (5) then The Green Party, then UKIP, and then The Tories are furthest away - I suspect that's about right. But of course it serves a purpose to have it reported in the way the Independent did.

[russycarps]

I didn't fancy being posted to some remote outpost in the Andes for a couple of years,

that sounds absolutely fantastic to me! The Andes are beautiful.

[LondonTom]

Grammar Schools do not encourage social mobility, but they do provide the children of the middle classes with an opportunity to study in a safe environment.

Bullshit, middle class kids don't do any bullying ? What exactly do they need protecting from?

It's a utopian dream but the reality, that I saw, is the same kids in the top classes of Maths were also the same kids in the top classes of English and the top classes of the Sciences. They were the ones to go onto A-Levels.

While there was a few kids in all top sets when I was at school, there was a lot who were different sets depending on subjects. I was one of them, top set for Maths and Science and bottom set for English. (Until teachers realised just because I wasn't great at writing, it didn't mean I couldn't read or understand English.).

Even if its only a few kids, why the fuck should those kids be left with fewer resources for the subjects they are good at?

Sorry, but I think that children need guidance as they often don't know what they want and the option to go to uni for a few years to avoid having to enter the grown up world of work, taxes, bills etc is a great pull for many.

Whats wrong with that? Some kids need that, some are not mature enough to enter the "adult" world as such at 16 or even 18. University isn't just about the degree you end up with, its about the skills you learn while there. Its obviously not for everyone and I am not an advocate of this if you don't go, you will be a failure nonsense we have now but at the same time I think every child needs the option even if its not the smartest career choice.

Edited December 15, 2014 by LondonTom

[grumpyhack]

More UKippers shooting themselves in various places.

http://news.sky.com/story/1391712/ukip-candidate-quits-over-offensive-remarks

Keep taking the pain killers lads

Edited December 15, 2014 by grumpyhack

[Thearg]

I was dual - but was then asked to do conscription in the Chilean army, I didn't fancy being posted to some remote outpost in the Andes for a couple of years, and avoided that by getting full UK citizenship.

However as I'm not born here, have had citizenship granted in the last 30 years - If the Nazi scum were to get in I would be be reclassified as a migrant (see the London Manifesto link in my post above) and able re-apply for permanent leave to remain, as would my daughter who is born here.

It's likely we would fail on the main criteria however - as neither of us were privately educated, or have private medicare - and that's the main criteria to be allowed to be granted 'migrant status'

Though on the plus side, there is a chance, as I'm not born here, I may also get to wear a nice star, and get to take a free communal shower!

If ever ukip get to power I'm leaving myself,its a shame the Scots didn't get independance I could of gone there,mind you that's probably the first place they'd invade.

[grumpyhack]

I was dual - but was then asked to do conscription in the Chilean army, I didn't fancy being posted to some remote outpost in the Andes for a couple of years, and avoided that by getting full UK citizenship.

However as I'm not born here, have had citizenship granted in the last 30 years - If the Nazi scum were to get in I would be be reclassified as a migrant (see the London Manifesto link in my post above) and able re-apply for permanent leave to remain, as would my daughter who is born here.

It's likely we would fail on the main criteria however - as neither of us were privately educated, or have private medicare - and that's the main criteria to be allowed to be granted 'migrant status'

Though on the plus side, there is a chance, as I'm not born here, I may also get to wear a nice star, and get to take a free communal shower!

Methinks you panic too much - though I appreciate that's probably the same re-assurance Jews were given during the rise of Hitler.

I would guess that convictions in the UK would count more than private education or medicare.

If people have been living a 'clean' life and paying their taxes I can't see any realistic likelihood of deportation.

[Spindles]

If people have been living a 'clean' life and paying their taxes I can't see any realistic likelihood of deportation.

If you trust these people to be able to make such judgements...

[Spindles]

Replace the Tories of the 80s with UKIP of today...

[5co77ie]

Interestingly they have removed ther policy document, I quoted below:

Their policy document:

http://www.ukiplondon2014.org.uk/policy/immigration/

Though at present this still remains:

http://www.ukip.org/issues

Protect Our Borders

issues_immigration.png

• Regain control of our borders and of immigration - only possible by leaving the EU.

• Immigrants must financially support themselves and their dependents for 5 years. This means private health insurance (except emergency medical care), private education and private housing - they should pay into the pot before they take out of it.

• A points-based visa system and time-limited work permits.

• Proof of private health insurance must be a precondition for immigrants and tourists to enter the UK.

Edited December 16, 2014 by 5co77ie