Ched Evans

[feral chile]

The sexism here is in that thinking.

Firstly, men get hard ons when unconscious all the time.

Secondly, a hard on does not signify a willingness to have sex. It only signifies a hard on, a capability to have sex.

And thirdly, if arousal is not a choice for women, why is it for a man?

it is a minefield. So, technically, a woman could get a man drunk to have her way with him, claim she was too drunk to give consent, and get him done for rape.

[eFestivals]

it is a minefield. So, technically, a woman could get a man drunk to have her way with him, claim she was too drunk to give consent, and get him done for rape.

lol - yeah, I guess.

[gary1979666]

it is a minefield. So, technically, a woman could get a man drunk to have her way with him, claim she was too drunk to give consent, and get him done for rape.

Would that technically be the man getting raped?

[Ted Dansons Wig]

Would that technically be the man getting raped?

Not in law. Law says rape is only possible where the victim is entered in the vagina, anus or mouth by a penis. So I'm reading this as man to man rape is posslble - but not woman to man

[viberunner]

He can still go to the pub.

He'd be well advised to steer clear of my pub.

[viberunner]

A women can not rape a man... A women can only sexually assault a man...

Legal Fact...

Transgender women can have penises.

[atomised]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/04/nyregion/04actor.html

Interesting article about someone returning to their chosen profession after serving time. Hes juat been cast as the phantom in phantom of the opera on Broadway. Theres people far from happy at the news on the productions facebook page.

I know its not an identical situation but think theres parallels

[kaosmark2]

Women can't rape men... Women can't force themselves on men.... That is why

A man has to be up for it to happen...

Secondary school biology....

Its about protecting yourself from a legal point of view.

I don't think it s a good idea for women to be doing that either though. But she isn't going jail for it.

Do you agree with the "biology" that this guy references:

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/todd_akin_women_cant_get_pregnant_from_legitimate_rape_20120820

?

[kaosmark2]

Women can't rape men... Women can't force themselves on men.... That is why

A man has to be up for it to happen...

Secondary school biology....

Since when did arousal equal consent?

[eFestivals]

He'd be well advised to steer clear of my pub.

it's good to see that we don't have people driven by the desire to inflict violence onto others. That would make them not much different to Evans.

[eFestivals]

Almost as good as neils morning glory comment

what, where with a simple fact I blew away your lie that a man only gets a hard dick thru a want to use it?

So you really think a women can force a man to have sex

Yes.

A man can hold a gun to a woman's head and force her to have sex. Likewise the opposite is true.

To suggest a man would maintain a hard on if truly being raped is frankly disgusting.

so a woman's arousal is not a concious thing but a man's arousal is?

I remind you of morning glories, where no conciousness exists.

[eFestivals]

If you was being raped I can't see how you would maintain arousal.

Men used to use that very defence against rape charges.

[gary1979666]

So you really think a women can force a man to have sex that's what your getting at isn't it.

You are a prat

Almost as good as neils morning glory comment

What is clear is a bunch of men here clearly have no idea hown terrifying rape is for a women. To suggest a man would maintain a hard on if truly being raped is frankly disgusting.

You are basically suggesting all rape victims where in fact gagging for it.

Sick c**t

If you was being raped I can't see how you would maintain arousal.

I think he's just saying that if a man is drunk enough that he cannot consent to sex, he can still get a hard on.

I don't think much of this conversation has been about violent rape.

Talk about an overreaction.

[russycarps]

oh look, barry is making a tit of himself again.

[viberunner]

and you win this weeks idiot award

Well done you

Insult me all you like, it's still a legal fact.

The CPS have guidelines on prosecuting women who have committed rape - because legally they can.

[viberunner]

it's good to see that we don't have people driven by the desire to inflict violence onto others.

We'd tackle him sans-violence.

[eFestivals]

We'd tackle him sans-violence.

just abuse then. So nothing at all like Evans.

[feral chile]

So you really think a women can force a man to have sex that's what your getting at isn't it.

You are a prat

Almost as good as neils morning glory comment

What is clear is a bunch of men here clearly have no idea hown terrifying rape is for a women. To suggest a man would maintain a hard on if truly being raped is frankly disgusting.

You are basically suggesting all rape victims where in fact gagging for it.

Sick c**t

If you was being raped I can't see how you would maintain arousal.

In the context of this discussion, though, a drunken woman is raped if she's so drunk she can't meaningfully give consent.

Now, this is obviously meant to cover circumstances when she's not fully conscious or when incoherent. But it could cover situations when she has consented, but was too drunk to know what she was doing.

Now, there are plenty of circumstances when both sexes will wake up in the morning and realise their inebriation has led to poor choices the night before.

Women are the only ones who could have an option to consider as to whether they had in fact been raped, because they were too drunk to make a reasoned judgement. And then the man has to prove he had a reasonable belief of consent.

So, 2 people waking up in exactly the same frame of mind are not given an equal footing in law if one's male and the other female.

I don't think arousal is really a factor, unless there's an implicit suggestion that alcohol either affects women's brains more than men, or that drunken men can't get it up by the time alcohol affects their brain.

I can understand Neil's objection now - if you have 2 people who have had sex because they were drunk, and both of them suffered impaired judgement, one can legally be a rapist and the other a rape victim, and yet have undergone exactly the same response to alcohol.

Because being drunk is not a defence, while it does give females victim status.

Bear in mind I'm not talking about sexual predators of either gender here.

Edited January 16, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

But, can you arouse a man too drunk to know his own mind?

Because that's where some rape cases of drunken women will be at - (not arousal, but 'consent' (or non refusal)

Edited January 16, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

Possibly... and that would be sexual assault if the man objected to it and the women knew what she was doing...

It's the exact equivalent, but it sounds like a lesser offence, so the public would take it less seriously.

And that's not fair.

It implies men are always up for it and potential predators, and women are potential victims.

The law pretty much takes the concept of consent away from men altogether.

[viberunner]

just abuse then. So nothing at all like Evans.

You're showing us how your mind works. Now blame your parents - not me.

[eFestivals]

So, 2 people waking up in exactly the same frame of mind are not given an equal footing in law if one's male and the other female.

It's taken a while, but well spotted.

In a case like the Evans one, it gets even more 'dangerous'. If a woman has willingly slept with two guys but then has dealings with the police about that night's encounter, how willing might she be to admit to those old bill what she's willingly done when that is likely to reflect back on her badly in the eyes of normal sexist society?

My take is that in a consequence-free situation the woman isn't likely to want to admit to a stranger that she's just slept with two guys. That can pan out into rape allegation which puts a consequence on it, where I'd hope a person would be fair-minded enough to then come clean - but at the same time I doubt that all would.

[feral chile]

I think there is an idea being pushed that a women who is a little bit tipsy, makes a shit choice she regrets next morning, and puts it all on the man and claims she has been raped, is going to result in men being locked up. I doubt that would ever make it to court. And if it does then its usually thrown out / found not guilty, just like the Evans case.

Look at the Evans case. His mate who had sex with her didn't get sent down. There is some level of responsibility on a man or a women has to take for themselves. Where the scales tipped is with Evans sneaking into the room, exiting via the fire escape, he wasnt the one who had taken her to the hotel etc etc etc. All indicators that shit wasn't right.

Can people not see that? That the court protected the man who had the initial sex with her?

I understand that the law's trying to do the best in situations like these.

But it is possible (though unlikely) that some women might have been perfectly happy to be passed around. How would the men involved prove it, and how can you establish what would be a change of mind, against lack of coherent consent?

How would the potential victim even be able to decide?

How drunk is too drunk to make a judgement, in comparison with making a decision you later regret?

[feral chile]

I wouldn't do any of the stuff above because of the possible consequences and its just all a bit disgusting.

Its called being a gentlemen...

You are opening yourself to problems....

I think the only safe option would be to know the person you're sleeping with very well, or not sleep with any drunken women.

It kind of rules out most nightclub 'socialising'

Edited January 16, 2015 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

I wouldn't do any of the stuff above because of the possible consequences and its just all a bit disgusting.

Its called being a gentlemen...

You are opening yourself to problems....

there's all sorts of consentual stuff that is "opening yourself to problems". By having a car, you're open to an accusation that you've run someone over, but it doesn't stop you driving.

Just because you think the missionary position is daring it doesn't mean everyone thinks like that or has to think like that. Things only ever step over the 'bad' line if it's non-consentual.

Frame your thoughts only in what is right and wrong, and not with your own hangups.