Ched Evans

[pink_triangle]

Would an employer take a chance on someone who was a risk of reputational damage to the company?

I don't know any rapists. However my assumption is that some must be released and find jobs, so some employers must take that chance. What we don't want is the public finding and hounding these employers.

[jump]

But what is specific and different about Evans and does make him hard done by is that a mob is pursuing his every move and interfering in the opportunities where he might get a job - making his situation far worse than it might otherwise be for someone in his position.

I wouldn't say the situation is the same as a typical pedo trying to find a job since he's got a bit of money and a rich family to support him unlike most.

[eFestivals]

Well there's the role model argument, of course. The little I've read about what happened - it was pretty horrendous behaviour, and I wouldn't have wanted any children of mine thinking he was cool and getting confused between being a decent footie player and a decent human being.

Here's the vacuous role model argument, yes. That's one for the sheeples.

Would any child of yours or anyone else's think a known rapist was cool?

[eFestivals]

I don't know any rapists. However my assumption is that some must be released and find jobs, so some employers must take that chance. What we don't want is the public finding and hounding these employers.

Spot on!

Which is precisely why i've not named the two high street chains that i know of that employ ex-crims almost exclusively.

[eFestivals]

I wouldn't say the situation is the same as a typical pedo trying to find a job since he's got a bit of money and a rich family to support him unlike most.

when did we pass a law that made adults the financial responsibility of their families?

[eFestivals]

Would any child of yours or anyone else's think a known rapist was cool?

PS: does anyone's kid think that Lee drunk-driver-killer is 'cool'?

Of course they don't. Nothing would be different about Evans.

[zahidf]

Here's the vacuous role model argument, yes. That's one for the sheeples.

Would any child of yours or anyone else's think a known rapist was cool?

Mike tyson was still considered cool post release. I remember at the time in the playground quite a lot of people calling his victim a 'slag'. Im sure the same would happen with a footballer in a club the kids supported.

[pink_triangle]

The funny thing I find about a lot Of people saying he can't be a footballer, but can d jobs x, y or z. Is that in general x, y and z will bring him into direct contact with females far more than football which is one of the most male dominated professions around.

[eFestivals]

Mike tyson was still considered cool post release. I remember at the time in the playground quite a lot of people calling his victim a 'slag'. Im sure the same would happen with a footballer in a club the kids supported.

do you think that could be the case with your own kids?

I know damned sure it wouldn't be the case with mine.

[eFestivals]

The funny thing I find about a lot Of people saying he can't be a footballer, but can d jobs x, y or z. Is that in general x, y and z will bring him into direct contact with females far more than football which is one of the most male dominated professions around.

exactly.

If Evans needs controlling after his release, that need is much the same in almost any job.

Which is why him playing football or not is a non-issue. It's an issued cooked up those who've got to hate.

[zahidf]

do you think that could be the case with your own kids?

I know damned sure it wouldn't be the case with mine.

Oh god no, if i had any.

[jump]

when did we pass a law that made adults the financial responsibility of their families?

Legally there are things like social housing that are dependant on not having a supportive family. I'm not saying he shouldn't work as he's got a rich family and has a bit of money but simply he lacks the urgent need to work that most ex-cons would have.

[eFestivals]

Oh god no, if i had any.

So there you are then, you're worrying about nothing.

[eFestivals]

Legally there are things like social housing that are dependant on not having a supportive family. I'm not saying he shouldn't work as he's got a rich family and has a bit of money but simply he lacks the urgent need to work that most ex-cons would have.

True, but we shouldn't make law for Ched Evans, we should make law for all of society.

Fair and equitable to all.

That's what we call justice.

[eFestivals]

Obviously not asking you to name them but how do you know this?

thru the knowledge I have of various angles of the justice system.

I know that sounds suspiciously vague, but that's deliberate for good reason. Those who've been around here for a (very?) long while might have picked up on some of it from things I've said previously, tho there's more to it than things I have posted here.

[eFestivals]

PS - nothing of those reasons has anything to do with any contact I may or may not have had with the justice system on a purely personal basis.

[pink_triangle]

exactly.

If Evans needs controlling after his release, that need is much the same in almost any job.

Which is why him playing football or not is a non-issue. It's an issued cooked up those who've got to hate.

To me the football thing has always been of a red herring. If he was playing in the conference south or league of Wales, there would have been a small amount of coverage and he would have been left to get on with it.People hate the fact that he may earn lots of money, unfortunately some nasty people get rich, thats life.

While football clubs may do work in the community, they don't send 20 plus footballers at a time and common sense would be not to send Evans to hand medals to a local female team. As well as football club, many other workplaces do work in the community, yet people don't seem to have a problem with him going to work in a factory.

[incident]

PS: does anyone's kid think that Lee drunk-driver-killer is 'cool'?

Of course they don't. Nothing would be different about Evans.

Assuming you mean Lee Hughes?

Because that's a really bad example for your point - While he was at Notts County (a couple years after his release), I'd say at least half of the County shirts I saw kids wearing had his name on the back. Their fans absolutely loved him, especially the younger ones that either didn't know or didn't understand what he'd done. He was their top scorer so they didn't care that he was a terrible human.

[feral chile]

The funny thing I find about a lot Of people saying he can't be a footballer, but can d jobs x, y or z. Is that in general x, y and z will bring him into direct contact with females far more than football which is one of the most male dominated professions around.

because it's not just about protecting the females that he meets! it's about being a celebrated football player that lots of young working class males will aspire to be like.

And protecting all those females from people who think money and fame gives them the right to treat women like shit. And since they can't get the money or fame, they'll settle for the last bit to feel good about themselves.

[pink_triangle]

because it's not just about protecting the females that he meets! it's about being a celebrated football player that lots of young working class males will aspire to be like.

And protecting all those females from people who think money and fame gives them the right to treat women like shit. And since they can't get the money or fame, they'll settle for the last bit to feel good about themselves.

I don't believe him being at a football club will encourage a significant amount of fans I know several footballers have killed and I don't think they influenced their fans to do the same thing. I hope in a way it may have the opposite effect, every weekend when they see Ched Evans play they will see him booed, abused by the opposing crowd and this is a warning what happens if you treat woman like this.

I hope the coverage that the Evans case get acts as a warning to some males who previously felt rape was when you forced a female down and as long as she didn't say no, it was fair game. This situation has been a complete mess and I have to hope something positive can come from it.

[feral chile]

I don't believe him being at a football club will encourage a significant amount of fans I know several footballers have killed and I don't think they influenced their fans to do the same thing. I hope in a way it may have the opposite effect, every weekend when they see Ched Evans play they will see him booed, abused by the opposing crowd and this is a warning what happens if you treat woman like this.

I hope the coverage that the Evans case get acts as a warning to some males who previously felt rape was when you forced a female down and as long as she didn't say no, it was fair game. This situation has been a complete mess and I have to hope something positive can come from it.

I really hope not. The whole thing is really unsavoury. I'm sick of badly behaved footballers getting all the media attention. I'm not a football fan by any means, but I'd way prefer Beckham as a role model than someone who treats women like this, whether they allowed it or not.

[Amy Lawn]

Football has a big mysogny problem, this whole episode highlights that. This "mob" that Unrepentant Convicted Rapist Ched Evans and Oldham seek to dehumanise in this situation are reasonable human beings who want the footballing world to make steps to being a bit less disgusting, starting by not hiring this low-life. It sends a message, if Unrepentant Convicted Rapist Ched Evans had come out of prison apologising for what he did, admitting his misdoings and urging other people to not to the same, urging football to clean up its act, then he'd be the perfect candidate to play for a club, a reformed character. But he still conducts himself a repulsive manner, he's a person whom any reputable 21st century organisation ought to be ashamed of associating with. Fans of the club have a right to speak up and protest about this, people in the wider world have a right to speak up and protest about this. It's clearly up to Oldham whether they'll listen or not, it's not about whether poor little Chedwyn should carry the wieght of his heinous crime forever (however his his victim and her family will carry the weight of his heinous crime forever), it's about whether a dirty industry should encourage him. The way Oldham and Unrepentant Convicted Rapist Ched Evans have try to paint the wider public who protested against this decision is disgusting, the massive weight of convincing moral arguments why Oldham shouldn't hire Unrepentant Convicted Rapist Ched Evans didn't sway their decision, they were just deterred by the pulling out of sponsors and bad press (because they're despicable humans), to then try to paint the masses of reasonable people who disapprove as bloodthirsty monsters who sent death threats is cartoonishly shit behavior. Fuck Oldham.

[viberunner]

It's obvious why he's in high demand, he knows how to force his way up the inside until he shoots.

Anyway, there are a couple of reasons why he should not return to football. Part of the reason for serving a sentence is to reflect upon your crime, to be humbled, and to return to society a changed and apologetic person. He hasn't done that as he still maintains his innocence, as such he isn't sorry for what he has been convicted of. He's an unrepentant rapist. (And on that part, because he still maintains his innocence he should dedicate himself to his appeal).

But he is allowed to return to football. There are no player regulations against it, the player's organisation are supportive of him. As are some clubs. And despite what Mr eFestivals himself says there is no mob rule here. No club has been attacked. No managers or directors or players are in fear for their lives or the lives or their colleagues or families. Two clubs have tried to hire him and two clubs have been stopped, but not in the style of Sunni fundamentalists who will kill you if you openly mock Muhammad or Islam.

(Off topic but it's worth saying Sunni, it's the Sunni version that has strict prohibitions on depicting Mohammed. It's actually quite common to depict him in the Shia variant, postcards and posters are widely available in Shia communities, there is even a state-funded depiction of him at a road junction in Tehran).

Anyway, what has happened with Ched has been effective democratic protest.

So the question is not should he have a right to return to football, he already does have that right.

The sorts of questions should be the like of

Should Jessica Ennis have the right to disassociate herself from Sheffield Wednesday if they hire him?

Do Guardian columnists have a right to write articles critical of clubs who wish to hire him?

Do consumers have a right to send letters of protest to sponsors of clubs who wish to hire him?

Do sponsors have the right to withdraw their sponsorship if they feel a club is bringing their brand into disrepute?

And the answer to those questions is of course we have the right to protest against him being hired.

Not violently protest. Not send bombs in the post. Not shoot staff at club. He is, after all, only a rapist not a cartoonist or author or film director. But we do have a right to make our opinions known. We do have a right to - politely, respectfully, and legally - contact sponsors and ask they disassociate themselves from an unrepentant rapist on threat of taking our custom elsewhere.

And it's kind of cool that, every once in a while, peaceful democratic protest actually works.

If anything I wish it worked more often.

Edited January 9, 2015 by viberunner

[pink_triangle]

And the answer to those questions is of course we have the right to protest against him being hired.

Not violently protest. Not send bombs in the post. Not shoot staff at club. He is, after all, only a rapist not a cartoonist or author or film director. But we do have a right to make our opinions known. We do have a right to - politely, respectfully, and legally - contact sponsors and ask they disassociate themselves from an unrepentant rapist on threat of taking our custom elsewhere.

And it's kind of cool that, every once in a while, peaceful democratic protest actually works.

If anything I wish it worked more often.

Of course people have the right to protest. However if everytime an offender is released the general public exercise that right to protest, they can stop that person ever working. Yet the reality is that the person is out of prison and society has to do something with them. If the majority always got their say, then we would end up with the death penalty. To me the individual case is irrelevant, Evans will do alright in the end, It opens the door to justice by social media and that worries me.

[viberunner]

Of course people have the right to protest. However if everytime an offender is released the general public exercise that right to protest, they can stop that person ever working. Yet the reality is that the person is out of prison and society has to do something with them. If the majority always got their say, then we would end up with the death penalty. To me the individual case is irrelevant, Evans will do alright in the end, It opens the door to justice by social media and that worries me.

Your argument is rooted in taking a single case to absurd proportions that clearly have no basis in reality.

This case specifically applies to a famous person in a prestige high-profile job. Chris Langham, a talented comic actor at the top of his fame & game, was convicted in 2007 for posessing childpornography and aquitted of sexual offences against a minor. It killed his career stone dead, he worked, twice, in low-budget productions.

If Ched Evans attempted to take an "ordinary" non-profile non-celebrity job he would not be being hounded, just as the rest of post-release prisoners aren't. If he got a job at the sewage treatment works that would be that.

But he is attempting to make a high-profile fame-game career despite being an unapologetic rapist. And many women, and the men who don't hate women, aren't having that. This is not justice by social media, this is regulating public life by public protest. And there's nothing wrong with that.

And if he manages to "survive his time" Rolf Harris will find his Animal Hospital days are over too.