Ched Evans

[pink_triangle]

To paint all men who think he should be allowed to play football as men who hate woman is a silly comment. While the use of "all" is certainly an exaggeration on my point. I still maintain what happens in a high profile case will be mirrored further down the chain.

People can now see how you can make that rapists life difficult who moves next door or is given a job locally. I see local campaigns may be influenced by the Evans case. People using their democratic right to protest may be successful and he may move, however the problem is just shifted elsewhere.

As I have said I hope some good may come from this situation, I suspect it will make little difference in discouraging rape elsewhere. I can't help but think that all the energy expended on this one individual could be better served lobbying government to tighten rape laws.

[eFestivals]

Assuming you mean Lee Hughes?

Because that's a really bad example for your point - While he was at Notts County (a couple years after his release), I'd say at least half of the County shirts I saw kids wearing had his name on the back. Their fans absolutely loved him, especially the younger ones that either didn't know or didn't understand what he'd done. He was their top scorer so they didn't care that he was a terrible human.

or perhaps they were merely appreciating his football, and nothing of him having killed while drunk?

There's things that I can appreciate about Thatcher, but it doesn't mean i love her. Us humans are smart and able to differentiate .... or do you think that's a special skill that only you have?

[eFestivals]

it's about being a celebrated football player that lots of young working class males will aspire to be like.

to be like the footballing part, not to be like the rapist part.

I've never met anyone that aspires to be a rapist. Have you?

(such people quite possibly exist, but if they do they won't be taking their cue from Evans, they'll be taking it from the voices in their heads).

And protecting all those females from people who think money and fame gives them the right to treat women like shit.

we'd better ban all rich people, and we'd better ban all celebrities, then.

[eFestivals]

This "mob" that Unrepentant Convicted Rapist Ched Evans and Oldham seek to dehumanise in this situation are reasonable human beings who want the footballing world to make steps to being a bit less disgusting

so all of football is disgusting now, not just Evans? We'd better ban all football then.

Meanwhile, reasonable people have fully formed views - real workable solutions - that include what a person can do and not only what they can't do.

I've demonstrated here that the Evans-antis only have the view that Evans should evaporate from the planet and go away, by the inability to say what the exact rules around criminals in football should be (they can only say "not Evans"), and the inability to say what jobs and wages and life-conditions ex-crims should be permitted, and the inability to say how they expect rehabilitation of crims when those people won't allow rehabilition.

Rapists exist, and forcing them into the shadows doesn't make them not exist. We have to face their existence head-on, by offering solutions to their existence that work out for the best for everyone.

When we find them guilty, we have laws that define the punishments they might receive, and also that once they have served their punishment they're permitted to rejoin society with the same rights as anyone else.

If those laws are wrong, then the thing to do is to have the laws changed by making a reasonable case for that change and getting support for those ideas.

There's of course support for the idea that rapists are horrible and shouldn't exist, but they do exist. Reality requires us to deal with that with intelligence and not only hatred.

[eFestivals]

Part of the reason for serving a sentence is to reflect upon your crime, to be humbled, and to return to society a changed and apologetic person.

100% wrong.

That is the *hope* we have of the justice system.

It is not any absolute requirement that a time served crim has to return to society as a changed and apologetic person, and it would be utterly stupid to think that fulfilment of that ideal by all crims is possible.

The best we are likely to get from those crims is the recognition that no matter how that crim might feel about their crime, to the rest of society it's not acceptable - and hope that the crim might moderate his/her behaviour as a result.

Perhaps some intelligent knowledge of the justice system would do your thinking some good, rather than taking your cue from the tabloids?

[zahidf]

Very good blog on the subject. Required reading.

http://footylaw.co.uk/2015/01/06/ched-evans-sifting-facts-from-fiction/

As ched himself said as quoted from this, 'It is a rare and extraordinary privilege to be permitted to play professional football.' He is right. Being a professional footballer isnt just a job it is a representational role and a privilege afforded to the few rather than the many.'

I liked the quote: 'We don't know why the trial judge reached this decision, but he had in mind that Evans had no future as a footballer, telling him that he had 'thrown away the successful career in which you were involved'.

Also, it makes the point how he hasn't served his sentence, and being on the sexual offenders register indefinitely means that he is still serving a punishment.

Also, how his reward on the website for further information ( given the nature of the case) is designed to encourage extra-judicial digging into the victims life, designed to slander and harass the victim,

I'd suggest Harry Redknapp read this before commenting on the subject, but then i remembered how he can't read or write. Hopefully he can find someone to read it out to him.

Edited January 10, 2015 by zahidf

[feral chile]

to be like the footballing part, not to be like the rapist part.

I've never met anyone that aspires to be a rapist. Have you?

(such people quite possibly exist, but if they do they won't be taking their cue from Evans, they'll be taking it from the voices in their heads).

we'd better ban all rich people, and we'd better ban all celebrities, then.

This is precisely the point. What does rape mean to a man? Do his supporters accept that having sex with a very drunken woman is rape? Why then, do men wait until the end of the night to move in on women in a nightclub?

You're nearly my age, you might remember when no meant maybeand failure to physically fight off sexual advances meant 'yes but I still want you to respect me in the morning'.

I remember going out with my friend and a group of lads started chatting, making overtures, and I just said, no thanks, I'm married. They kept up the chat, which got more and more sexually overt, aggressive and degrading. I was getting really upset and stressed, so my friend intervened, and said 'what my friend is trying to tell you is fuck off'. They then got offended, but dropped it.

I don't want to go back to a time when people think it's ok to behave without due respect to others.

Women spent decades fighting to get their rights respected, for court cases to stop looking at how women dressed, their sexual history, whether the were 'respectable' (ie not drinking in a pub, back in those days) because there was a strong zeitgeist of, if the woman didn't take sensible precautions, it was her own fault. There was even talk about 'what did she expect, out late on her own' etc.

So I have mixed feelings about the drunken rape stuff, I can see why they've changed the law.

Edited January 10, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

Just watch old repeats of on the buses, whereby the man getting the woman drunk was considered a perfectly acceptable means of seduction - most men think of rape as physical attack

[jump]

I really hope not. The whole thing is really unsavoury. I'm sick of badly behaved footballers getting all the media attention. I'm not a football fan by any means, but I'd way prefer Beckham as a role model than someone who treats women like this, whether they allowed it or not.

Beckham was caught fucking about as well though.

[viberunner]

Perhaps some intelligent knowledge of the justice system would do your thinking some good, rather than taking your cue from the tabloids?

The "you is the stupids" is a stupid line of reasoning and whilst I'd hope you can do better I haven't come to expect it.

And no of course I don't expect the CJS to work or work perfectly, but given it clearly doesn't work in some cases that gives more the reason why social ostracisation from high-profile public life is justifiably within democratic regulation of the unwritten social contract.

For reference, I don't read the tabloids though I admit The Guardian and The Independent could do better sometimes. If anything I would have imagined the red tops would have had "he's done his time" type columns but I wouldn't know as I don't read them - can you give an overview? And I think it's worth bearing in mind, the campaign against his reintroduction to a prestige position is widely supported by seasoned and sober and nuanced broadsheet commentators, as well as by the likes of Jessica Ennis who really doesn't seem to be a hang-'em-high young woman.

[feral chile]

Beckham was caught fucking about as well though.

He didn't take a drunken girl to a hotel room and pass her around his mates, though, did he.

(and yes, I am aware that Ched Evans was the 'mate', and not the one passing).

Edited January 10, 2015 by feral chile

[viberunner]

He didn't take a drunken girl to a hotel room and pass her around his mates, though, did he.

She strenuously denies she was drunk (on 14 units of alcohol) and strongly insists her drink was spiked.

[eFestivals]

Very good blog on the subject. Required reading.

http://footylaw.co.uk/2015/01/06/ched-evans-sifting-facts-from-fiction/

As ched himself said as quoted from this, 'It is a rare and extraordinary privilege to be permitted to play professional football.' He is right. Being a professional footballer isnt just a job it is a representational role and a privilege afforded to the few rather than the many.'

FFS, is that the barrel you've now scraping in trying to justify the hatred you won't put down?

The only "privilege" around footie players are the necessary footie skills.

I liked the quote: 'We don't know why the trial judge reached this decision, but he had in mind that Evans had no future as a footballer, telling him that he had 'thrown away the successful career in which you were involved'.

if the sentence the judge was handing down was a ban on football, that would have been the sentence.

But you just invent one, eh? It's nothing like what you say is Evans' invention of his claims of innocence, eh?

Also, it makes the point how he hasn't served his sentence, and being on the sexual offenders register indefinitely means that he is still serving a punishment.

he has served the prison part of his sentence and been released into society without any conditions for his future employment.

Being on the sex offenders register is not regarded as punishment, but as an on-going extra-protection for society by keeping tabs on where sex offenders are and what they're doing.

(and I'll point out that a streaker would end up on the sex offenders register; it is not a list of only dangerous predators)

When the facts aren't in your favour, just make them up.

Also, how his reward on the website for further information ( given the nature of the case) is designed to encourage extra-judicial digging into the victims life, designed to slander and harass the victim,

When The Sun offered a reward for info about the Soham murders, did you also regard that as a dangerous interference with the justice process, designed to bring bad things onto the innocent?

[eFestivals]

So I have mixed feelings about the drunken rape stuff, I can see why they've changed the law.

I've no problem with the laws as they stand, tho it needs realising by society that the stepping over the line between what is rape and what isn't within the 'too drunk to consent' idea is as small as any legal margin can ever get.

The people who do have problems with the laws as they stand are those who are ignoring the legal judgement handed down to instead make up their own version of it.

[eFestivals]

And no of course I don't expect the CJS to work or work perfectly, but given it clearly doesn't work in some cases that gives more the reason why social ostracisation from high-profile public life is justifiably within democratic regulation of the unwritten social contract.

well, at least you're smart enough to recognise you're asking for mob-justice, which is more than most with your take on things have managed.

[eFestivals]

She strenuously denies she was drunk (on 14 units of alcohol) and strongly insists her drink was spiked.

which is probably as accurate as most of the claims of being spiked when it was all the rage around ten years ago, which medical tests rarely backed up for those who made those claims.

If she was really spiked, that obviously puts a different angle on things - tho any spiking is (from the little i know of the case) extremely unlikely to be anything to do with Evans and/or the other guy, as i believe it's the case that witnesses have said she was steaming drunk when they first encountered her.

Edited January 11, 2015 by eFestivals

[zahidf]

Hmmm

Firstly, ched Evans himself said playing football is a privilege. His words.

The point of the judges quote was to show that he had a more realistic view of Evans future as a footballer than evans and his fanclub do.

A reward to find information on a crime is very, very different to a rapist offering a reward for information on his victim. Especially when the victim has had to change her identity five times because ,in part, of the actions of the rapists friends and family.

Being on the register also tells employers about their employees sexual crimes history. They can then make a decision based on that wether to hire him. For a football club, they should consider the views of their fans, sponsors and local community. Because you know, thats supposed to part of their remit as a football club. In evans case, the views of sponsors, fans (like Barry) and the community are adamant.

[bunique]

Is being on the sex offenders register an automatic consequence of a rape conviction, or is it at the discretion of the sentencing judge?

[atomised]

Im pretty sure it's automatic

[viberunner]

well, at least you're smart enough to recognise you're asking for mob-justice, which is more than most with your take on things have managed.

Mob justice literally or mob justice figuratively?

Literally it involves a mob and fear of physical retribution, in effect the Parisian shootings.

Figuratively it involves peaceful democratic protest.

Of course you know this, so you use the language that incites the imagery associated with the first because it's actually the second that has happened - and you don't seem to like successful peaceful democratic protest.

[pink_triangle]

Not quite...

Sponsors... One said they would stay with the club... Two didn't comment... Three said they would pull out... As far as I understand

Fans... Totally divided.... Some comfortable with him being signed... Some angry as hell... Everyone agrees the club handled it terribly...

Community... Totally divided in much the same way...

I would agree with that assessment. My analysis (with no detailed polling) would say football fans are pretty much 50/50 about him returning to the game, those in favour may even be in the slight majority. Non football fans however are significantly against him returning to the game. While the latter group may not attend games, they have huge influence over the sponsors.

[zahidf]

My own detailed analysis says 95% of women fans don't want him anywhere near the game.

[eFestivals]

The point of the judges quote was to show that he had a more realistic view of Evans future as a footballer than evans and his fanclub do.

The point of the judge is to hand down a sentence.

And the point of the judge's quote wasn't to ban Evans' from football, but don't let that stop you making it up, eh?

A reward to find information on a crime is very, very different to a rapist offering a reward for information on his victim.

evidence of a crime or evidence of a non-crime is the same thing towards a court's verdict.

Being on the register also tells employers about their employees sexual crimes history. They can then make a decision based on that wether to hire him. For a football club, they should consider the views of their fans, sponsors and local community.

Are you a fan, a sponsor, or part of the local community? No you're not.

So you don't even meet your own criteria.

We're talking here about the ban from all football you want applied to Evans. And yet a law applied to just one person is victimisation, and not a law ... and so we need a law.

I'm the PM, and I'm going to take you seriously and implement a law that does what you say. So please tell me what the details is of the law you want implemented, and you can have your wish.

So you need to define what you want (other than to victimise Evans). Can you tell me what yo0u want, or do you only wish to victimise Evans?

[zahidf]

The point of the judge is to hand down a sentence.

And the point of the judge's quote wasn't to ban Evans' from football, but don't let that stop you making it up, eh?

evidence of a crime or evidence of a non-crime is the same thing towards a court's verdict.

Are you a fan, a sponsor, or part of the local community? No you're not.

So you don't even meet your own criteria.

We're talking here about the ban from all football you want applied to Evans. And yet a law applied to just one person is victimisation, and not a law ... and so we need a law.

I'm the PM, and I'm going to take you seriously and implement a law that does what you say. So please tell me what the details is of the law you want implemented, and you can have your wish.

So you need to define what you want (other than to victimise Evans). Can you tell me what yo0u want, or do you only wish to victimise Evans?

Don't need a new law. Just extend the current law relating to serious crime convictions banning a return to the profession as it applies to Solicitors and GP's, and extend it to footballers. It will relate to all football as regulated by the FA.

[eFestivals]

Don't need a new law. Just extend the current law relating to serious crime convictions banning a return to the profession as it applies to Solicitors and GP's, and extend it to footballers. It will relate to all football as regulated by the FA.

You've failed yet again.

What exactly is the "football" he's banned from? All football? Just "pro" levels (which you'd still need to specifically define)? Pub footie? Kicking a ball around in the park with his mates (or at a later date, perhaps his kids)?

You're speaking a lot, but you're not saying anything.

And if these things were done, would you and the other antis then accept the law you'd wanted, and stop persecuting Evans, or would you still pursue him much as you are if he took a job which wasn't with his father-in-law (the only job you've previously said he should be permitted)?

Edited January 12, 2015 by eFestivals