What women (don't) want.

[kaosmark2]

A lot of men purport to be feminists to try and get into womens pants.

Well why else would you be nice to women? They're not like real people.

[eFestivals]

blimey...

you said "that's not what the patriarchy argument says."

I replied: "there's only one?", meaning only one argument, which you appear to have interpreted as me saying 'only one patriarchy'

Correct.

There is only one version / definition / idea of patriarchy.

Anything different you might make up in your head is something different to patriarchy.

I'm referencing patriarchy. What are you referencing that isn't patriarchy that you're wrongly calling patriarchy?

[eFestivals]

NO! I asked if you thought there's only one argument!

There is only one argument, that brings about the fully-formed definition of patriarchy.

Anything else you're working to is not patriarchy.

[LondonTom]

Well why else would you be nice to women? They're not like real people.

So they don't grumble to much about making you a Sammich?

[kaosmark2]

So they don't grumble to much about making you a Sammich?

They don't make sandwiches right anyway. Not enough bacon.

[eFestivals]

tony's gone quiet. I wonder why.

Edited February 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

He's allergic to smiley faces

[eFestivals]

I disagree with you, that's why. What is the point here if all you're going to do is laugh at me and call me a moron?

what exactly do you disagree with me about tony? You seem reluctant to say. Why is that?

I'm trying to get you to state your case, but you won't. You only want to say that you "disagree" but not about what you disagree with.

Tell me what you disagree with, please...?

[eFestivals]

He's allergic to smiley faces

he's allergic to committing himself to anything, as he's showing to the simple questions I keep asking that he avoids giving a straight answer to.

If he knows I'm wrong to disagree with me, he should be able to say why and how I'm wrong and why he's right.

I'm trying to get him to say, but strangely he won't.

[eFestivals]

I disagree that there's only one argument for starters

So can you please point me at the definition of patriarchy you're working to which gives alternative arguments to the academically-defined version of patriarchy?

I want to know what the alternative basis for a patriarchal society (which is new to me) rests upon.

Edited February 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

you don't see a difference between patriarchy, and a patriarchy argument, which I do.

But what are these differing arguments that you adhere to tony? Why won't you say what they are?

That's not me saying you're wrong and I'm right, it's a difference of viewpoint

But what is the different viewpoiunt you have tony? I keep asking you to give them to me, but you seem reluctant to say.

If there's only one argument, how come there are so many different feminist perspectives?

only one of those feminist perspectives is patriarchy, tony.

There are a number of different feminists viewpoints, but only one patriarchy.

Might it be that you don't know what patriarchy is, and you're resorting to making it up? Your words certainly say that you don't know what patriarchy is and you're making it up out of nothing.

But I'd love you to put me straight, and you tell me how it is.

Edited February 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

Well why else would you be nice to women? They're not like real people.

or to put it another way, why else would you give up your place at the top table and all the advantages it affords?

[eFestivals]

I don't have a need to tell you how it is, because I don't think there is one 'how it is'.

But there's a strictly-defined version of patriarchy tony - but just the one version. Which you said you accepted.

And now you're saying you don't accept it.

So which is it?

Or are you just making it up from your head at any moment, and nothing of what you're referring to is patriarchy?

The different arguments are about how different people people deal with patriarchy.

a person can only get to that point when:-

1. they know what patriarchy is.

2. they fully accept its existence as defined by academics within the theory of patriarchy.

I'm asking you about what patriarchy *IS*, not how someone might try to negate it. After all, you can't act against something unless you have identified what you're acting against.

I'm happy to have the conversations with feral and midnight and most other people here. They don't turn the debate into a competition.

I'm not trying to turn anything into a competition. I'm trying to get you to say what the fuck you're going on about.

Have my easy questions all got a bit difficult for you, so you want to run away from them?

Edited February 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

or to put it another way, why else would you give up your place at the top table and all the advantages it affords?

Well out of a sense of morality, ethics and decency. Or more cynically, because if you keep oppressing people, eventually they'll rise up against you and leave you with nothing.

[eFestivals]

If what I'm saying isn't clear, then I'm sorry. I'm not saying it's not my fault that it's not clear, but it's as clear as I can make it.

Oh, it's pretty clear tony, don't worry.

[eFestivals]

so what's the problem?

You don't know....?

You said you knew what patriarchy was, so you should know what the problems are with what you're saying.

[eFestivals]

well, it's clear to you what I'm saying. Maybe you understand me better than I do

I dunno. Do you know you're talking shite? Or it is just the rest of us who know that you are?

[eFestivals]

by the way, what does "If he knows I'm wrong to disagree with me," mean?

if you know I'm wrong to disagree with me, you must know where and how you disagree.

I keep asking you to say, but you won't. There must be a reason why.

[eFestivals]

oh, and what does "If he knows I'm wrong to disagree with me," mean?

it means you can tell me how I'm wrong to back up you saying I'm wrong.

But you don't and you wont.

Why is that?

Edited February 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

who else?

anyone with the minutest idea of what patriarchy is.

Some of us aren't making it up out of our heads as we go along.

Edited February 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

Well out of a sense of morality, ethics and decency. Or more cynically, because if you keep oppressing people, eventually they'll rise up against you and leave you with nothing.

Male feminists make me uneasy. You see photos of men at feminist rallies with slogans on their tshirts. I find it odd. It's not a mans fight. Of course I want equality, but I wouldnt go on a feminist march. Women need to win this on their own.

Edited February 16, 2015 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

Women need to win this on their own.

Spot on.

You cannot be given your freedom, you have to take it for yourself.

[bunique]

Men shouldn't challenge inequality? My husband shouldn't challenge his mother when she tells our 4 year old that the clothes she likes are "for boys"?

Should only gay people fight for gay rights?

Am I missing something? Is this the "chipping away" Tony has been derided for?

[eFestivals]

ah, but that's not what you said.

It is what I said.

Meanwhile, you won't say how you disagree, and look to kick off an argument elsewhere.

How odd.

[eFestivals]

Men shouldn't challenge inequality? My husband shouldn't challenge his mother when she tells our 4 year old that the clothes she likes are "for boys"?

Should only gay people fight for gay rights?

Am I missing something?

yep - the nuances in what russy said that are absent from what you've said back.

No one said that inequality shouldn't be challenged.