What women (don't) want.

[kaosmark2]

Male feminists make me uneasy. You see photos of men at feminist rallies with slogans on their tshirts. I find it odd. It's not a mans fight. Of course I want equality, but I wouldnt go on a feminist march. Women need to win this on their own.

I'd be uncomfortable doing that. It'd feel like I was trying to advertise my belief in equality rather than just advocating basic human decency. I'll challenge the wrong I see, and I try and avoid using certain language that perpetuates problems ("she's such a tease" is a real hated phrase of mine), but going around parading myself as a feminist would feel weird.

And of course, then I'd get called up more on the tasteless jokes I make.

[russycarps]

Then it's just another divide. If the men don't want the same thing, it's a waste of time. Men can do as much as women.

You might as well say racism is only for the victims of racism to fight against.

Saying it's not for men is a cop out

how can we possibly want it as much as women?

[russycarps]

Men shouldn't challenge inequality? My husband shouldn't challenge his mother when she tells our 4 year old that the clothes she likes are "for boys"?

Should only gay people fight for gay rights?

Am I missing something? Is this the "chipping away" Tony has been derided for?

that's not what I said at all. Of course it should be challenged.

But the fight for equality is primarily a womans fight, not a mans.

[bunique]

If feminism is a belief in pursuing equal rights for women, and a man believes women should be equal to men, then surely that makes them a feminist? I am often bemused by the fact educated women will say "I'm not a feminist" - it makes me want to shake them and ask if they therefore believe they are or should be subservient to men!

[eFestivals]

Such as?

not you. You've made that clear with what you've posted.

Now, get over yourself and go and read what you don't know. Without doing there's not much here for you to comment on.

[bunique]

Surely a man calling another man out on sexist language will have more impact than a woman, who is too easily dismissed as a screeching harpy.

[russycarps]

Because it benefits everyone

Whether men want it as much isn't the point. Some women want it more than others. Some women don't want it at all

so some men want "equality" for women more than women themselves?

[eFestivals]

If feminism is a belief in pursuing equal rights for women, and a man believes women should be equal to men, then surely that makes them a feminist?

the answer to your question is revealed by your own choice of words.

You've said a feminist is a particular thing, then given an example of a male doing something different, and suggested that they're the same.

Back to what you were really getti8ng at....

As can be seen within this discussion, some women refuse to accept the right of men to have an opinion even when it's supportive - so it's hardly a surprise that some men might choose to take those women at their word.

That idea has been behind my own input here, where I've declined to lay out the arguments feminists make and instead suggested that women go and find out for themselves.

Mind you, I reject entirely the anti-intellectual view that a man is unable to make any worthwhile contribution. That's a line for the morons as a way to shut down discussion.

I am often bemused by the fact educated women will say "I'm not a feminist" - it makes me want to shake them and ask if they therefore believe they are or should be subservient to men!

I'd guess if you were a little older you might better get what's behind that - which is, essentially, feminism of the 70s, which plenty of women found too radical for the fluffy pink kitten strokers those women wish to imagine themselves as.

[russycarps]

yep. You didn't know?

do you accept that a man's vision for equality is likely to be different from a woman's vision?

[eFestivals]

Surely a man calling another man out on sexist language will have more impact than a woman, who is too easily dismissed as a screeching harpy.

I'm guessing that was aimed at me.

And yet feral was being a screaming harpie. I'm aware from what she's posted that you had to wise her up some in the background, and midnight (and you?) got nothing like the same response for saying the same thing to feral as I* said.

(* which, I'll point out, contained nothing abusive or defamatory - it was me daring to tell her [very politely!] she was talking bollocks [which she now accepts] that had her lose all reason).

Amusingly enough, it was only when I did eventually (days after a mass of *SEXIST* abuse from her!) call her a screaming harpie that she stopped being one.

It's funny; you didn't feel the need to comment about her first use of sexism, making your choice of actions...?

Edited February 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I don't make the difference between men and women.

I thought you said you accepted the existence of patriarchy?

Edited February 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Yep. And that's one of the ways I reject it.

then you don't accept the existence of patriarchy.

[eFestivals]

But I do

I'm a complicated guy

Or perhaps something else entirely.

Edited February 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

I don't make the difference between men and women. I think many men want the same equality as many women. Many men don't want it, along with many women too

And there's everything inbetween

so you are saying equality is an impossible dream then?

[bunique]

Not aimed at you Neil - was more a response to russy and kaos's posts

[eFestivals]

Not aimed at you Neil - was more a response to russy and kaos's posts

Well, I did call her a screeching harpie, so it's hardly surprising I did think it aimed at me.

Meanwhile, you've chosen to not comment about her own use of sexism, which makes your choice of actions to only comment about the male sexism as....?

[bunique]

It's funny; you didn't feel the need to comment about her first use of sexism, making your choice of actions...?

I've largely ignored the posts between the pair of you it was russy's post about men being feminists that piqued my interest.

[bunique]

Well, I did call her a screeching harpie, so it's hardly surprising I did think it aimed at me.

Meanwhile, you've chosen to not comment about her own use of sexism, which makes your choice of actions to only comment about the male sexism as....?

I haven't seen that post where you used that term so apologies, I can see why you will have thought that was directed at you, it wasn't intentional.

[eFestivals]

I've largely ignored the posts between the pair of you

we both know that's not true, because feral spilled it in a post.

[kaosmark2]

Surely a man calling another man out on sexist language will have more impact than a woman, who is too easily dismissed as a screeching harpy.

Depends on the men involved, but yes, it is important for men to call other men out.

[russycarps]

in a way, yes. I have said that before (and I'm not castigating you for not knowing that!). I can't conceive of there ever being total equality. Everyone doesn't even want the same thing, so to aim for something which I don't think we all want would be a bit pointless.

But I do think there's plenty of room for a 'more' equal society

oh maybe I should read all 27 pages then.

But fuck that!

[bunique]

I was posting particularly in response to Kaos's post about challenging certain terminology. I was just picturing how that discussion might go in the pub, for example, where I can see the response to a man putting up the challenge being less dismissive than the response to a woman.

[bunique]

we both know that's not true, because feral spilled it in a post.

I sent her a message very early in the Page 3 discussion, but haven't read much of what followed other than a skim through - I've responded to those that caught my interest. I think I did call Feral out when she said it was a woman's responsibility to challenge men's sexist behaviour more so than for men to modify their own behaviour? I'd have to go back about 10 pages of the news thread though!

[eFestivals]

Depends on the men involved, but yes, it is important for men to call other men out.

I'd disagree with this to the same extent I'd disagree with women being called out for the same.

That's not me saying it should never happen. It's me saying that in most instances it's rather pointless, just as much as it would be to (say) harangue a 'glamour model' personally for getting her tits out in the paper.

The issues are not really about personal behaviour where we've been conditioned into acting in particular ways. We'll only change such things via a proper understanding of how they come to be.

[bunique]

I'd guess if you were a little older you might better get what's behind that - which is, essentially, feminism of the 70s, which plenty of women found too radical for the fluffy pink kitten strokers those women wish to imagine themselves as.

These are women of my own generation (I'm old now!!) but yes, that is the argument they give - the bra-burning version of feminism. It feels a little like they're throwing the baby out with the bath water.