What women (don't) want.

[eFestivals]

What is the purpose of that post? Does it make you feel good? Is it supposed to make me feel bad? Should I take it seriously? Do you want me to shut up? Why don't you ban me? It's your ball

The purpose of that post was to say that you're wrong.

The use of terms such as "patriarchy", "sexism" and "feminism" does NOT "just stifles the real debate", it *INFORMS* the debate.

Debates require people to debate ideas. You know, ideas like "patriarchy", "sexism" and "feminism".

Your problem with the use of "patriarchy", "sexism" and "feminism" is that you don't have the first fucking clue what they mean, as you demonstrated yesterday.

A smart man would realise he knew fuck all and would try and catch up, rather than try to blame others for having knowledge that's absent in you.

You're trying to shift the blame for your lack of knowledge onto the language and concepts that you don't understand. It's laughable.

Edited February 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

who have I blamed?

those who understand the concepts that you don't, for using those concepts.

[eFestivals]

is being aggressive and rude and as unpleasant as possible your usual way of informing people?

It's a novel approach, I must admit

PMSL.

It's not aggressive to point out how wrong you are when you're so so wrong. You find it aggressive to be told you're wrong, only because you believe you cannot be wrong.

Why not justify your statement of "All the labelling (patriarchy, sexism, feminism, etc) just stifles the real debate.", tony? Or is actually being intelligent enough to make your words stand up beyond you?

Why do you find that labelling stifling of the debate? Might it be because you don't know what those labels mean?

FFS.

It's tony, he'll argue anything but the actual subject under discussion.

[eFestivals]

at least I don't make shit up about what people have said

currently I'm pointing out the shit you HAVE said tony.

You know, with quotes and everything.

You don't attempt to make your idiocy stand stand up. You try and shoot the messenger instead.

And that's because you KNOW you're talking shit.

It's tony, he'll argue anything but the actual subject under discussion.

Edited February 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

All the labelling (patriarchy, sexism, feminism, etc) just stifles the real debate.

why tony? How do they stifle the debate?

They are fully defined concepts, that anyone is capable of understanding, and are all central to the subject under discussion.

[eFestivals]

I seem to remember this discussion trundling along just fine until you decided you needed to put everyone right and turn it into a mindless slanging match.

Read back over the pages Neil, and say that isn't so

I address a point, you pick an argument because I've addressed a point but not anything about me addressing that particular point. What part of that are you missing, tony?

I'll ask again....

Why is it that "All the labelling (patriarchy, sexism, feminism, etc) just stifles the real debate", tony? You said it, so you must know why you said it.

Why does using the appropriate terms within a debate stifle that debate?

[eFestivals]

You think feminism is one thing to all people?

feminism is just one thing tony, yes. That's why it's able to have a definition.

[kaosmark2]

Tony, while Neil is definitely being an aggressive dick he's right. Having a reasoned debate (not that this is one right now) requires a mutual understanding of the concepts involved, and ensuring a shared definition of the important terms used.

[eFestivals]

Tony, while Neil is definitely being an aggressive dick he's right

So the aggressive one isn't the person who challenges everything I say in whatever thread I say it in, just because It's me that's said it?

The aggressive one isn't the person who challenges everything I say, but not actually on what I've said?

The aggressive one isn't the person who challenges everything I say, on the basis that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about?

The aggressive one isn't the person who won't answer reasonable questions about what he's said, and who instead picks a different argument just on the basis that what they've said has been challenged?

Etc, etc, etc.

Tony is everything he's condemning, and much more besides.

If someone's talking shit, tell them they're talking shit.

Edited February 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

ok. So what is a feminist? I'm open to being educated.

the bookshop is thataway -->

But at least you've finally admitted your ignorance of the subject under discussion, negating your 'contributions'.

[eFestivals]

do the different experiences of some women on here and ones I know count?

yep.

But when you've argued against concepts you're now admitting (tho it was always exceedingly obvious) you know fuck all about, we all know that you've been talking worthless shit.

I've read tons of this stuff.

yep, you've read so much that you don't know what the most basic of concepts are.

There's radical feminism, liberal feminism, third wave feminism... and I'm supposed to go by one (yours?) defifinition of it?

No, not mine. You'd know that if you knew what it was.

And very well done for knowing some words for some different things. All you need to do now is learn what they are so you can use those words as they're meant to be used.

Edited February 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

define concept Neil

concept

ˈkɒnsɛpt/

noun

noun: concept; plural noun: concepts

an abstract idea.

In this case, patriarchy / sexism / feminism are already-well-defined abstract ideas.

Edited February 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I'll ask again....

Why is it that "All the labelling (patriarchy, sexism, feminism, etc) just stifles the real debate", tony? You said it, so you must know why you said it.

Why does using the appropriate terms within a debate stifle that debate?

You seem to be avoiding this, tony, and trying to pick an argument on anything else you can think of.

You've never done that before, of course.

[eFestivals]

I've used feminism as an example. It's a concept. A concept is a general notion, an idea. It, by definition, is not always clearly defined.

any word has a definition, which - by definition - *LITERALLY* makes that word clearly defined.

FFS.

Shall we start at learning the alphabet, tony, and work up to it from there for you?

Edited February 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

You seem to be avoiding this, tony, and trying to pick an argument on anything else you can think of.

You've never done that before, of course.

[kaosmark2]

There's radical feminism, liberal feminism, third wave feminism... and I'm supposed to go by one (yours?) defifinition of it?

You're supposed to agree a definition of what you're discussing at the start of the debate.

[eFestivals]

You're like a religious person, who needs everything defined for him. Life isn't like that. People have different interpretations of things, especially concepts.

I'll ask again....

Why is it that "All the labelling (patriarchy, sexism, feminism, etc) just stifles the real debate", tony? You said it, so you must know why you said it.

Why does using the appropriate terms within a debate stifle that debate?

Edited February 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

but this didn't start off the way it ended up

which is usually what happens isn't it?

I'll ask again....

Why is it that "All the labelling (patriarchy, sexism, feminism, etc) just stifles the real debate", tony? You said it, so you must know why you said it.

Why does using the appropriate terms within a debate stifle that debate?

Edited February 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

but this didn't start off the way it ended up

which is usually what happens isn't it?

A discussion started.

There was arguing over the definition of terms and the concepts they represent.

The sensible follow-up is to then try and clarify such definitions.

Instead you've been evasive and Neil's been insulting. Neither of you has furthered this.

[eFestivals]

Instead you've been evasive and Neil's been insulting. Neither of you has furthered this.

I'll always call a moron a moron.

Do you think tony isn't being a moron?

[eFestivals]

if, which is my stance, that there aren't specific definitions of some concepts, then how can I clarify that any more than I have done?

I might be wrong, but when Neil isn't involved in this topic, the others, including me, get to understand differences of opinion and discuss those differences in a polite way. When Neil is here, it gets insanely abusive. Not just to me. Anyone who disagrees with Neil is a tool of the largest order.

I'll ask again....

Why is it that "All the labelling (patriarchy, sexism, feminism, etc) just stifles the real debate", tony? You said it, so you must know why you said it.

Why does using the appropriate terms within a debate stifle that debate?

Edited February 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I'll ask again....

Why is it that "All the labelling (patriarchy, sexism, feminism, etc) just stifles the real debate", tony? You said it, so you must know why you said it.

Why does using the appropriate terms within a debate stifle that debate?

[kaosmark2]

if, which is my stance, that there aren't specific definitions of some concepts, then how can I clarify that any more than I have done?

I might be wrong, but when Neil isn't involved in this topic, the others, including me, get to understand differences of opinion and discuss those differences in a polite way. When Neil is here, it gets insanely abusive. Not just to me. Anyone who disagrees with Neil is a tool of the largest order.

Redefining the debate is a classic evasion tactic that involves trying to challenge the currently accepted definition of a key term, while just postponing any potential for discussion.

Neil is being abusive, and to multiple people. That doesn't change the fact that you're making empty statements saying nothing.

[eFestivals]

by the way, did you notice that you attributed my quote to 'comfortablynumb'?

cock up.

because the definitions AREN'T agreed on. The topic then falls into a hole of nit-picking. There is no discussion any more.

http://www.dictionary.com

I'll ask again....

Why is it that "All the labelling (patriarchy, sexism, feminism, etc) just stifles the real debate", tony? You said it, so you must know why you said it.

Why does using the appropriate terms within a debate stifle that debate?

Edited February 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

what now? or all along?

Right now, and at multiple times in the past.