What women (don't) want.

[feral chile]

we both know that's not true, because feral spilled it in a post.

I'm guessing that was aimed at me.

And yet feral was being a screaming harpie. I'm aware from what she's posted that you had to wise her up some in the background, and midnight (and you?) got nothing like the same response for saying the same thing to feral as I* said.

(* which, I'll point out, contained nothing abusive or defamatory - it was me daring to tell her [very politely!] she was talking bollocks [which she now accepts] that had her lose all reason).

Amusingly enough, it was only when I did eventually (days after a mass of *SEXIST* abuse from her!) call her a screaming harpie that she stopped being one.

It's funny; you didn't feel the need to comment about her first use of sexism, making your choice of actions...?

so some men want "equality" for women more than women themselves?

I'm guessing that was aimed at me.

And yet feral was being a screaming harpie. I'm aware from what she's posted that you had to wise her up some in the background, and midnight (and you?) got nothing like the same response for saying the same thing to feral as I* said.

(* which, I'll point out, contained nothing abusive or defamatory - it was me daring to tell her [very politely!] she was talking bollocks [which she now accepts] that had her lose all reason).

Amusingly enough, it was only when I did eventually (days after a mass of *SEXIST* abuse from her!) call her a screaming harpie that she stopped being one.

It's funny; you didn't feel the need to comment about her first use of sexism, making your choice of actions...?

I'm seriously going to have to make the effort to read that thread back.

[russycarps]

This thread is absolutely crackers

[feral chile]

the answer to your question is revealed by your own choice of words.

You've said a feminist is a particular thing, then given an example of a male doing something different, and suggested that they're the same.

Back to what you were really getti8ng at....

As can be seen within this discussion, some women refuse to accept the right of men to have an opinion even when it's supportive - so it's hardly a surprise that some men might choose to take those women at their word.

That idea has been behind my own input here, where I've declined to lay out the arguments feminists make and instead suggested that women go and find out for themselves.

Mind you, I reject entirely the anti-intellectual view that a man is unable to make any worthwhile contribution. That's a line for the morons as a way to shut down discussion.

I'd guess if you were a little older you might better get what's behind that - which is, essentially, feminism of the 70s, which plenty of women found too radical for the fluffy pink kitten strokers those women wish to imagine themselves as.

And it's not anti-intellectual to hold a view that a woman is unable to make a worthwhile contribution? Unless she agrees that she's unable to make a worthwhile contribution, by agreeing to the view that patriarchy renders her incapable? Unless she accepts patriarchy, in which case her view automatically becomes valid? yet, by accepting patriarchy, she's invalidating the validity of her own view, because she's accepting that her view is determined by patriarchy.

It's a nice double bind that patriarchy's (or is it feminism, since it's a feminist theory) got ging for itself here.

Why are you not giving me credit for taking on board all the feminist theories of the 80s (which is when I was exposed to them) and actually living them? I took on the ideas of female autonomy, a woman's right to her own body, the possession of women through marriage and monogamy, etc., ands defend a woman's right t do what she wants with her wn body.

I personally find it patronising, and an extension of patriarchy, to try to tell women they don't yet have that right, which is what you do when you invalidate a woman's choice.

And this is what drives my defence of the rights of Page 3 models to do as they damn well please, whether I like it or not.

It's not for patriarchy, or feminism, or anyone else to decide. And even if they are doing it to make themselves objects f desire, t's their choice, not ours.

Though, and this might ell be double standards, I'm not above heckling men for looking. Because if it's men objectifying women that's wrong, it's the men whom we need to be addressing.

Because, if you are right, we shouldn't be condemning women for making choices in a patriarchal world, because whichever choice they make will be patriarchially determined.

And if I'm right, it won't, it'll be their choice anyway.

Edited February 17, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

really? I don't think there's much mileage in a better tomorrow for women via a pretence of a false past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_history

[Katster]

But in reality if a woman intends to exclusively breastfeed for the first 6 months, it's not a practical solution.

Why not? Mum takes first six months of maternity leave, dad takes second

[greenfairy43]

I opened this thread hoping to find an interesting debate.

How wrong I was. I cannot be arsed to even attempt to read all of it, seems like it's yet another "It's my website so I'm right/you're all wrong" borefest.

Missing Worm eh Neil?

[Katster]

which is a pretty special thing to be able to do.

I wonder if a woman would trade being able to breast feed a baby, for having an advantage when it comes to seeking employment?

The bond that forms between a mother and child thanks to breastfeeding is something I view with envy. But hey! at least I might have a better chance of getting a job when I'm 30 and newly wed.

I feel honoured to have been given the opportunity to breastfeed.

However, Willows bond with her dad is just as strong as with me. There's other ways for dads to bond

[Katster]

yep, tho they can't split the pregnancy.

Women work through pregnancy as normal minus risk assessed issues (lifting etc).

If they go on sick after a certain date a company can force them to take it as maternity leave.

[Katster]

This thread is absolutely crackers

It's certainly interesting. It's been a while!

[feral chile]

Women work through pregnancy as normal minus risk assessed issues (lifting etc).

If they go on sick after a certain date a company can force them to take it as maternity leave.

That's really bad.

I also enjoyed the time home with my children. We didn't really have the choice, back then, because we were still in the middle of fighting to get affordable childcare. I'm not sure if I'd have gone back to work in any case though.

I don't know if I'd have been able to cope, to be honest.

Edited February 17, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

Now that women have the choice whether to go to work or stay home with the children, does it feel like a genuine choice? Are there still financial or social pressures to do one or the other?

Edited February 17, 2015 by feral chile

[Katster]

I'm not coping at the idea of having to, and I've still got another six months to go. I'm lucky that my dad will be having her when I'm at work but it's still going to kill me every hour I spend away from her. The longest I've left her is a few hours. I'm considering going back part time.

[Katster]

I'm only on 17k per year and Dan only on 12k. We can't afford for one of us to stay at home. I'd love nothing more than to be able to

[Katster]

That's really bad.

I also enjoyed the time home with my children. We didn't really have the choice, back then, because we were still in the middle of fighting to get affordable childcare. I'm not sure if I'd have gone back to work in any case though.

I don't know if I'd have been able to cope, to be honest.

Sorry I should have stated that the sickness they go off with must be pregnancy related.

[feral chile]

I'm not coping at the idea of having to, and I've still got another six months to go. I'm lucky that my dad will be having her when I'm at work but it's still going to kill me every hour I spend away from her. The longest I've left her is a few hours. I'm considering going back part time.

My daughter was in a similar quandary. She had a well paid job, but when she had children she moved away from Wales, because her of her husband's job. She took a career break, and was contemplating coming back to Wales part time to keep her job open. I couldn't imagine that working, but managed to keep my opinions to myself (I know, it's hard to believe )

She resigned in the end.

[feral chile]

I'm only on 17k per year and Dan only on 12k. We can't afford for one of us to stay at home. I'd love nothing more than to be able to

This is what's so shitty about everything. Nothing's changed in 30 sodding years there.

legislation isn't enough.

[feral chile]

Sorry I should have stated that the sickness they go off with must be pregnancy related.

It's still crap though.

[feral chile]

I opened this thread hoping to find an interesting debate.

How wrong I was. I cannot be arsed to even attempt to read all of it, seems like it's yet another "It's my website so I'm right/you're all wrong" borefest.

Missing Worm eh Neil?

there has been some debate in here, and a few attempts to discuss wacky internet stuff. I think it's veered off what midnight intended for it, though.

[midnight]

Sorry I should have stated that the sickness they go off with must be pregnancy related.

Yes, usually 4 weeks before the due date, any pregnancy related sickness automatically triggers maternity leave (even if it was just one day).

Btw, friend of mine who was expecting at the same time as me lost her contract as soon as they heard she was pregnant. Technically illegal, but with shorter contracts very easily done.

Nothing personal girls. Just a "cold emotionless business decision".

[bunique]

I went for an interview at 7 months pregnant. I felt I had to do as much as I could to hide the fact (luckily I wasn't huge!) for the sake of the panel as much as anything - it would have been an enormous elephant in the room and put them in an awkward position I felt (in that if they didn't appoint me and I was obviously pregnant they might be accused of bias because of the pregnancy rather than on the fact I was a weaker candidate). As it was one of the panel suspected but they couldn't tell for definite apparently. Still, didn't get the bloody job

With regard to splitting maternity leave, while it would make logical/practical sense (I'm the main earner) it wouldn't work for us because I'm the only one with a burning desire to stay at home! I was part time for just over a year after I went back with my first. I'm already trying to work out how I can give up work altogether with this one! Pie in the sky...

[midnight]

I'm only on 17k per year and Dan only on 12k. We can't afford for one of us to stay at home. I'd love nothing more than to be able to

I think your situation is not that unusual - please don't take this as lack of sympathy. The idea that the woman has the option to stay at home and raise the kids in peace whilst the guy brings home a sufficient pay package (or a freshly slain antelope, depending on which era you're thinking of) only ever rang true for a relatively short space in history, and never for the whole population. A lot of women's work (apart from house and childrearing related work, which is of course unpaid) is hidden, ie a farmer would probably not have listed his wife as an employee, no matter how instrumental she might have been to running the farm. The sister of a friend of mine separated from her husband (who is running a farm) a few years ago. He then had to employ 2 people to get the work she'd left behind done. Of course the wife never got a salary for anything she did, she was a "housewife". They have 4 children too, btw.

Women in the poorer strata of society usually had to work, otherwise the family would not have survived. Both my grandmothers were "servant girls". During the industrial revolution, the textile industry employed masses of (poorly paid) women and children. It still employs mostly women (and in some countries, children), it is still relatively low paid work.

I found it terribly hard to go back to work - my son was 14 months old, he wasn't ready, nor was I, but needs must and all that.

Btw, we still don't have much affordable childcare. The nursery my son attended (it was a good one, but nothing special) charged £55 per day. No discount if the child was ill and had to miss days. The father paid half of it, and my boss agreed that I could work from home 2 days a week, otherwise it would have been incredibly expensive. And this was 5 years ago, They certainly charge more now.

Edited February 18, 2015 by midnight

[bunique]

Our nursery bill for full time childcare is over £700/month. She's dropping down to part time hours in a fortnight, though it'll still be £300 (we could of course take her out completely and save the money but she starts school in September so only had a few months left and she adores it there - and I'm not sure I can cope with both of them at home all the time ). I'm very lucky that my employer is in a childcare voucher scheme and that she is also getting her free hours. I don't know how people with two or more nursery age children, or on low incomes, manage.

[midnight]

I went for an interview at 7 months pregnant. I felt I had to do as much as I could to hide the fact (luckily I wasn't huge!) for the sake of the panel as much as anything - it would have been an enormous elephant in the room and put them in an awkward position I felt (in that if they didn't appoint me and I was obviously pregnant they might be accused of bias because of the pregnancy rather than on the fact I was a weaker candidate). As it was one of the panel suspected but they couldn't tell for definite apparently. Still, didn't get the bloody job

With regard to splitting maternity leave, while it would make logical/practical sense (I'm the main earner) it wouldn't work for us because I'm the only one with a burning desire to stay at home! I was part time for just over a year after I went back with my first. I'm already trying to work out how I can give up work altogether with this one! Pie in the sky...

Good luck. x

I did consider becoming a registered childminder for a while, but my flat isn't really suitable, that was one of the reasons I didn't pursue it.

Edited February 17, 2015 by midnight

[bunique]

Our house isn't suitable either - it would be, if I go back to full time work and save to do the renovations needed! It would help if my job wasn't relentlessly miserable. I quite fancy your line of work midnight!

[midnight]

I'm lucky to have a really supportive boss (a single mother, btw), otherwise I wouldn't have it so good (regarding working from home etc, my previous boss would never have agreed to that).

On the downside, I have to deal with local politicians quite a lot - if that doesn't put you off........