What women (don't) want.

[midnight]

"So realistically, the more women help each other, the more they help themselves."

Yes, that would be my experience.

(sorry, I messed up the quote funtion for this, it was feral's comment)

Edited February 19, 2015 by midnight

[midnight]

Tax Credits helps with childcare in some cases.

What happens if you're a single woman earning minimum wage, 16 hours a week, and your childcare is more than your wages? Would Tax Credits pay out?

Not sure, I was told I didn't qualify. There are some calculators on the relevant websites.

[bunique]

Not sure about where you work midnight, but in our authority there is increasingly a push towards flexible (they call in "agile" ) working in that in our new office space there will only be 7 desks to every 10 employees. I know of other authorities where staff are expected to work at home 2/5 days per week. So working from home or alternative bases will become much more common which will hopefully be good for women returning to work and both sexes managing childcare and caring for older relatives.

I'm curious though (as I mentally build my return to work case ) - when you worked from home was your child at home with you? I can't imagine being able to get anything done! Previous to mat leave I was working at home most evenings anyway but employers don't seem to be keen on that fragmented way of accruing hours...

[eFestivals]

When did I say you were putting words in my mouth?

You're just making shit up

again

You said I was putting words in your mouth just there - and if I've done it "again", then you MUST have said it before.

Can I drop by your house one morning? I reckon there might be some great entertainment watching you trying to tie your shoelaces.

[eFestivals]

Women are socialised to be more emotionally intelligent, however, just as men are to hide their feelings.

I agree that we need to move away from gender stereotyping though.

:lol:

Priceless.

[eFestivals]

How do we ensure women have genuine choices, because now it's just gone the other way, and women are feeling pressured into work?

when men are similarly pressured into not-working, only then might you get "genuine choices".

[eFestivals]

I was watching a nature documentary not long ago, about a type of monkey and how the tribes behave. And there's a tribe, or family of them, headed by one male. There are other males in the tribe, but they're not the 'leader'. Every now and again, some other males from other tribes will infiltrate and try and kill the leader so they become the leader. It was a obviously a male thing to do.

Now, I realise that we can rise above a lot of our basic instincts, but I felt a sense of sadness, that maybe, this is how we're (males) programmed

Biological determinism?

Feral is no longer your friend.

[eFestivals]

we'd be totally screwed if it was true.

I think it's possible that sometimes women can be more vicious than men, purely because of the physical disadvantage.

When I see the media presentation of the woman screaming or cowering behind the male while he's getting attacked, it always feels unrealistic to me, I think women would be trying to get in some kind of disabling blow.

And because women would only have the advantage of surprise, it would have to be pretty permanent.

I used to live next door to a working mens club.

The fights outside were 90% women vs women, but if it were men fighting it would be the women screaming to egg them on.

[eFestivals]

oh...putting words in my mouth is your way of me saying how much crap you make up..

Then yes, you do put words in my mouth / make a lot of shit up

says the man who said he'd never before accused me of doing that whilst saying "again", and who has no problem doing exactly the same thing which had got us to exactly here.

FFS. Perhaps put in an application for that 2nd brain cell?

[eFestivals]

I know...!

People possibly disagreeing without resorting to immature name calling! What's the world coming too?

Don't worry tony, your own lies have got you back on course, so you can spend the rest of the day trying to have an argument with me about anything but the thread subject.

You wouldn't want it any other way.

[eFestivals]

Biological determinism?

I know...!

So you must know what "biological determinism" means then, unlike 'sexism', 'patriarchy' and 'feminism' which you felt only confused things.

So none of the resat of us are getting confused, care to tell us what "biological determinism" means to you?

[eFestivals]

I don't know what it means to me. I need you to explain it for me

I asked you with uncertainty if that was what you were suggesting, hence my "?".

You appeared to agree, but now don't know what you agreed with?

[MrZigster]

This has just appeared on Cracked.com:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/8-a242423oles-who-show-up-every-time-word-feminism-used/

I haven't read it yet. I just thought this thread may like it.

[feral chile]

:lol:

Priceless.

Are you disagreeing with either comment, which ones?

Edited February 19, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

tony, the reason neil thinks I'd fall out with you is because biological determinism states that behaviour can be explained by biology, while I'm a behaviourist.

So, in the nature/nurture debate (is there still one) if we both had a strong view that either perspective was correct and the other wrong, we'd fall out.

Except I don't think either of us think in terms of either/or, and it's not that simple. There's usually a mixture of both.

And I'd only fall out with you if you were being insulting or patronising, and I've never seen you do either

[feral chile]

I'm not disputing that it is capitalism (it is), but it is sexist too; one does not exclude the other.

There are people who think that capitalism and feminism don't go together well.

http://newint.org/blog/2014/10/15/feminism-capitalism-equal-pay/

God, I SO much prefer the term institutional sexism to patriarchy.

And I already know what you can say. But to me, it takes assumptions out of it, because in theory, sexism can go both ways.

[feral chile]

when men are similarly pressured into not-working, only then might you get "genuine choices".

They're pressured in to not-not working, why is that not the same?

[feral chile]

Not sure, I was told I didn't qualify. There are some calculators on the relevant websites.

Yes, the childcare has to be with a registered childminder, there are rules as to how many hours you work, there's a cap on childcare costs, and it's income tapered.

it's pretty complicated.

[feral chile]

Thank you. I had a strong feeling that was/is the case.

I was also fairly sure that that was what Neil was getting at too (pointing out the difference between biological determinism and the nature/nurture debate.

I don't how know often or for how long he needs to keep on insulting me to make him feel however he wants to feel.

I also think it's more than ironic how he accuses me of avoiding questions.

It is pretty ironic.

[feral chile]

OK, now this is the bit about patriarchy arguments I don't understand.

Are these women challenging patriarchal attitudes, or are they

kidding themselves?

[midnight]

Not sure about where you work midnight, but in our authority there is increasingly a push towards flexible (they call in "agile" ) working in that in our new office space there will only be 7 desks to every 10 employees. I know of other authorities where staff are expected to work at home 2/5 days per week. So working from home or alternative bases will become much more common which will hopefully be good for women returning to work and both sexes managing childcare and caring for older relatives.

I'm curious though (as I mentally build my return to work case ) - when you worked from home was your child at home with you? I can't imagine being able to get anything done! Previous to mat leave I was working at home most evenings anyway but employers don't seem to be keen on that fragmented way of accruing hours...

Mine have pushed for "flexible/agile working" in the last 3 years, in order to safe office space & costs, but at the time I came into my little privilege we were still a bit ahead of the curve. I've since had to go to a few meetings to give examples of what it's like! My son's father wanted to work from home one day a week in 2010, and his managers were totally against it. He started a new job last year, and was told in the first week that he would be expected to work from home 2 to 3 days a week as soon as he had a grip on things, as they did not have enough desks and workstations (he's in IT). He found that the ratio of 3 days home/2 in the office didn't work out, he's now doing 2 days at home. I've found the same to be the case in my line of work (although it's a very different beast) - more than 2 days at home, and too many things pass you by.

Yes, my son was mostly with me, although I wasn't shouting that from the rooftops.

I found things for him to do, so that I could be on standby all day, answering emails & phonecalls, and all the more coherent stuff I did in the evenings, I have a token that allows me to connect to my work computer and all contents 24/7. As long as I meet my deadlines and am available for comments during office hours (online & phone), no one really cares. Also, I usually did a long preparation shift on Sunday nights, to be ahead of things in case the nipper didn't play ball. And I had an agreement with a near-by childminder for emergencies. Now he is at school and it is a lot easier, before that it was quite knackering with all the late nights.

The downsides are the spillovers - work & home are not so clearly separated and it can be hard to switch off and say "I've done enough for now". I have a tendency to overdo it a bit, partially because I don't want to be accused of not doing enough when I'm at home. I guess people who run their own businesses are used to that always-on-call feeling!

Edited February 20, 2015 by midnight

[midnight]

God, I SO much prefer the term institutional sexism to patriarchy.

And I already know what you can say. But to me, it takes assumptions out of it, because in theory, sexism can go both ways.

Well......... Ok, I won't say it, then. I said I'd give THAT topic a rest.

OK, now this is the bit about patriarchy arguments I don't understand.

Are these women challenging patriarchal attitudes, or are they

kidding themselves?

I don't get this - is there a link missing? Which women?

[eFestivals]

Are you disagreeing with either comment, which ones?

I'm laughing at the contradiction.

[eFestivals]

God, I SO much prefer the term institutional sexism to patriarchy.

and so I'd prefer that you showed me something that isn't male-defined so you can put the patriarchy idea to bed in favour of institutional sexism.

[eFestivals]

They're pressured in to not-not working, why is that not the same?

The men's option (from society's pressure) is *only* to work.

Women get at least one extra option, despite the fact that the same pressure is growing onto women.