What women (don't) want.

[jump]

For women, you can doll yourself up, or not, so it's not so much intrinsic beauty that's being judged.

Neither is having muscles which takes alot of time and energy to achieve.

[feral chile]

Neither is having muscles which takes alot of time and energy to achieve.

yes, so it's not envy of appearance that's being judged then, but wanting to look better. so not so different for men.

Edited February 3, 2015 by feral chile

[russycarps]

yes, so it's not envy of appearance that's being judged then, but wanting to look better. so not so different for men.

so men are envious of muscular men, but women are not envious of pretty women? I'm not so sure that's the case.

Bitchy remarks are often made out of jealousy, no?

[feral chile]

no, I'm saying that people can be negative of others wanting to enhance their appearance. Whether you want to think of it as envy or being superior, that's down to interpretation.

But both involve wanting to improve appearance (maybe, though not as straightforward with the gym).

Edited February 3, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leora-tanenbaum/what-does-slut-mean-anyway_b_6594124.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

I found this interesting, and more articulate than I was in the other thread

[midnight]

And the trend is very much for that kind of fitness - CrossFit, Insanity, P90X are all incredibly popular are adopt the same principles as those in the article. Google "insanity before and after" and you'll see what people achieve in 60 days. And it's both men and women - my husband goes to a "Guerilla training" class (think circuits but with the kind of exercises that article describes) and it's attended by more women than men - some go every day. I still await his 6 pack though

Perhaps the 12 weeks aren't up yet?

A typical gym session is 30 mins to hour so there's plenty of time to do other shit during the day too, whilst you get people who are obsessive with the gym you will also find people just as obsessive with footie, games, soaps etc and it’s more to do with the person being a bore than the intrest.

Sure, but the original comment was in response to an article where someone practically runs his life around gym sessions and specialised food intake for 3 months in oder to achieve a fashionable change of physique. That's quite different from someone who does a few hours over a week. Mind, unless the gym is on your doorstep, you'll have to factor in the time for getting there and back, changing and showering, so it does take a bit more time.

Or they fancy someone there

Yes! That's what I would call a Win/Win situation!

[midnight]

I don't think it's envy so much as bias. Pretty girls looking overtly sexy are seen as also being brainless.

I noticed in the other thread, a few of us assumed that Page 3 girls would otherwise be doing menial jobs. And it wasn't challenged. Just as when I implied the same about footballers.

It's as if we think that someone who conforms to this particular stereotype can't also be intelligent.

I don't remember the footballer bit, but I do remember my own comment about posing for a page 3 shot probably being much better paid than stacking shelves. But that wasn't meant to imply stupidity, having to do boring, poorly-paid work is often the consequence of a lack of opportunities. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that some of the girls who do this are students who are trying to get some extra income. There really aren't many well paid jobs for that age group (these girls are usually aged 18-22 , have I got that right?). When I was that age, I worked in the laundry section of a large local hospital (and some truly grim stuff arrived there), and I cleaned toilets to make ends meet. Can't get much more "menial" than this. I needed some money, and as I was studying, I had to find work that fitted around the hours of my course (the laundry job offered weekend and night shifts).

There certainly is the idea, or prejudice, that a certain way of dressing and presenting oneself is a sign of being silly or not very bright (applies to both men and women). But I don't think that is strongly linked to pretty or attractiveness, more to a particular style.

[midnight]

so men are envious of muscular men, but women are not envious of pretty women? I'm not so sure that's the case.

Bitchy remarks are often made out of jealousy, no?

To be perfectly honest, I have completely given up on making any comments about the appearance of other women when I'm out with a group of men, because whatever I say, however complimentary it might be, usually gets re-constructed by them into a somehow potentially "bitchy" expression of female jealousy. I am quite tired of it, and a bit baffled, so I just shut up. It is odd. I really do appreciate female beauty when I see it, I have long reconciled myself to the fact that there are plenty of women out there who are younger and prettier than I am, and I just can't see any reason why I should be automatically jealous of every nice woman that walks the earth. I am really not in competition with every other woman for the attention of every man. But the assumption usually is that I somehow ought to be.

Don't know whether men experience similar things.

[feral chile]

To be perfectly honest, I have completely given up on making any comments about the appearance of other women when I'm out with a group of men, because whatever I say, however complimentary it might be, usually gets re-constructed by them into a somehow potentially "bitchy" expression of female jealousy. I am quite tired of it, and a bit baffled, so I just shut up. It is odd. I really do appreciate female beauty when I see it, I have long reconciled myself to the fact that there are plenty of women out there who are younger and prettier than I am, and I just can't see any reason why I should be automatically jealous of every nice woman that walks the earth. I am really not in competition with every other woman for the attention of every man. But the assumption usually is that I somehow ought to be.

Don't know whether men experience similar things.

You're clearly not as butch looking as me then, I get the lewd winks and comments if I say something nice abut another woman.

[feral chile]

I don't remember the footballer bit, but I do remember my own comment about posing for a page 3 shot probably being much better paid than stacking shelves. But that wasn't meant to imply stupidity, having to do boring, poorly-paid work is often the consequence of a lack of opportunities. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that some of the girls who do this are students who are trying to get some extra income. There really aren't many well paid jobs for that age group (these girls are usually aged 18-22 , have I got that right?). When I was that age, I worked in the laundry section of a large local hospital (and some truly grim stuff arrived there), and I cleaned toilets to make ends meet. Can't get much more "menial" than this. I needed some money, and as I was studying, I had to find work that fitted around the hours of my course (the laundry job offered weekend and night shifts).

There certainly is the idea, or prejudice, that a certain way of dressing and presenting oneself is a sign of being silly or not very bright (applies to both men and women). But I don't think that is strongly linked to pretty or attractiveness, more to a particular style.

I was thinking more that a certain type of woman, the well made up, stiletto heeled, WAG type, attracts some negative stereotyping from both men and women. There seems t be an assumption that they're using their sexuality to advance themselves, lots of mutterings about casting couch type of thing. I've noticed the latest one is that they're helping each other out through nepotism. But always the implication that they don't have what it takes t be successful through their own ability. So I don't think it's envy for them personally, more derision if anything, but maybe envy for what they've achieved.

It's extremely prejudicial, and I catch myself doing it too.

It also works against men - I remember someone turning up for an interview in one place I worked, and he was all fake tan and oily, and I instantly thought he had no chance.

Edited February 4, 2015 by feral chile

[russycarps]

To be perfectly honest, I have completely given up on making any comments about the appearance of other women when I'm out with a group of men, because whatever I say, however complimentary it might be, usually gets re-constructed by them into a somehow potentially "bitchy" expression of female jealousy. I am quite tired of it, and a bit baffled, so I just shut up. It is odd. I really do appreciate female beauty when I see it, I have long reconciled myself to the fact that there are plenty of women out there who are younger and prettier than I am, and I just can't see any reason why I should be automatically jealous of every nice woman that walks the earth. I am really not in competition with every other woman for the attention of every man. But the assumption usually is that I somehow ought to be.

Don't know whether men experience similar things.

I think men and women are not so different, just the responses they receive to comments they make are different. You would receive negative responses whereas a man would receive positive responses, probably labelled "banter" (hateful word).

If a man see's a man who obviously looks after himself and is well groomed "look at that poofter ha ha!". This will be brushed off as "banter"

If a man see's a man who is muscular "look at him! Loves himself! Bet he's a right obnoxious prick. Spends all his time at the gym and counting calories! what a bore!". Again, received as "great banter".

A woman see's a pretty girl with big tits dolled up for a night out "wow look at her she's got a lot of make up on" the response is "ooooooo bitchy! jealous are we!"

Thinking about it, perhaps men are more envious of muscular men than women are of pretty girls. Because a man with big muscles is (in our minds) likely to get all the girls, be stronger etc etc. Being physically powerful is "manly".

Though perhaps girls resent pretty girls for the advantages being pretty provides, or are perceived to provide (whatever they may be).

Edited February 4, 2015 by russycarps

[feral chile]

I think men and women are not so different, just the responses they receive to comments they make are different. You would receive negative responses whereas a man would receive positive responses, probably labelled "banter" (hateful word).

If a man see's a man who obviously looks after himself and is well groomed "look at that poofter ha ha!". This will be brushed off as "banter"

If a man see's a man who is muscular "look at him! Loves himself! Bet he's a right obnoxious prick. Spends all his time at the gym and counting calories! what a bore!". Again, received as "great banter".

A woman see's a pretty girl with big tits dolled up for a night out "wow look at her she's got a lot of make up on" the response is "ooooooo bitchy! jealous are we!"

Thinking about it, perhaps men are more envious of muscular men than women are of pretty girls. Because a man with big muscles is (in our minds) likely to get all the girls, be stronger etc etc. Being physically powerful is "manly".

Though perhaps girls resent pretty girls for the advantages being pretty provides, or are perceived to provide (whatever they may be).

I think it can be seen that pretty girls have an unfair advantage, by both men and women. That's partly because scientific evidence suggests they do, as do tall men. But also there seems to be a refusal to accept that certain types of people, just can have the talent or skills to be successful, because they're being judged entirely on the way they look.

Edited February 4, 2015 by feral chile

[midnight]

I think men and women are not so different, just the responses they receive to comments they make are different. You would receive negative responses whereas a man would receive positive responses, probably labelled "banter" (hateful word).

If a man see's a man who obviously looks after himself and is well groomed "look at that poofter ha ha!". This will be brushed off as "banter"

If a man see's a man who is muscular "look at him! Loves himself! Bet he's a right obnoxious prick. Spends all his time at the gym and counting calories! what a bore!". Again, received as "great banter".

A woman see's a pretty girl with big tits dolled up for a night out "wow look at her she's got a lot of make up on" the response is "ooooooo bitchy! jealous are we!"

Thinking about it, perhaps men are more envious of muscular men than women are of pretty girls. Because a man with big muscles is (in our minds) likely to get all the girls, be stronger etc etc. Being physically powerful is "manly".

Though perhaps girls resent pretty girls for the advantages being pretty provides, or are perceived to provide (whatever they may be).

That's probably it. One is banter/piss-take and the other bitchiness. But that brings me back to my initial gripe that women's behaviour is judged more harshly (and, in this case, not by other women).

I don't think I resent pretty girls (although my idea of prettiness may be somewhat different, ie great curves don't play much of a part for me), I like to look at them too. I resent the assumption that I naturally would resent them. Of course, I'd resent anyone who'd try to get between me and my beloved, but that's a different kind of resentment, and whenever that kind of thing has happened to me, I ended up resenting the guy more than "the other woman", because it was ultimately his choice and decision to leave.

That's a lot of resentment in one post!

Edited February 5, 2015 by midnight

[midnight]

I was thinking more that a certain type of woman, the well made up, stiletto heeled, WAG type, attracts some negative stereotyping from both men and women. There seems t be an assumption that they're using their sexuality to advance themselves, lots of mutterings about casting couch type of thing. I've noticed the latest one is that they're helping each other out through nepotism. But always the implication that they don't have what it takes t be successful through their own ability. So I don't think it's envy for them personally, more derision if anything, but maybe envy for what they've achieved.

It's extremely prejudicial, and I catch myself doing it too.

It also works against men - I remember someone turning up for an interview in one place I worked, and he was all fake tan and oily, and I instantly thought he had no chance.

I don't particulary care for the strong focus on appearance that is feed to us through the fashionworld, advertising etc, I think mainly for 2 reasons: Firstly, it allows very little variation, there is a kind of standard that you have to work too. Secondly, an awfully large amount of time and resources needs to be dedicated to it to reach it.

I'd say it is a distraction from what really matters. If you're pre-occupied with/obsessing about your weight, clothes etc, you are less likely to fret about local politics. Something along these lines. I can't think of a better way of wording it tonight, I'm tired and I'll need my brain at work tomorrow (for once!).

[Katster]

Because I'm better than you.

Ha, I don't know, I didn't see your comment or the responses, were they before or after mine?

[feral chile]

When it has been said, on this thread, that an intelligent head is what some people find attractive, a reasoned debate ensued.

When I said a similar thing, the response was 'bullshit', and a lot of ridicule.

Why is that?

It didn't upset me, I'm just curious

Because you were male, saying it in a predominantly male thread.

And it was this response in the other thread, more than any other, that made me reconsider my own stance.

It put me in mind of the Jodie Foster film, The Accused.

I was going to post a link, but even the trailer is pretty disturbing. I was thinking of the bar scene, where a man was heckled and his masculinity questioned until he joined in with the attack.

Edited February 5, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

I don't particulary care for the strong focus on appearance that is feed to us through the fashionworld, advertising etc, I think mainly for 2 reasons: Firstly, it allows very little variation, there is a kind of standard that you have to work too. Secondly, an awfully large amount of time and resources needs to be dedicated to it to reach it.

I'd say it is a distraction from what really matters. If you're pre-occupied with/obsessing about your weight, clothes etc, you are less likely to fret about local politics. Something along these lines. I can't think of a better way of wording it tonight, I'm tired and I'll need my brain at work tomorrow (for once!).

Since my weight fluctuates so much, I know the interpersonal dynamics change dramatically.

Edited February 5, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

Well, part of my stance on the Page 3 debate was a reaction to what I know are my own biases. I know I tend to have a dismissive attitude/attitudinal bias against a particular female stereotype, of which Page 3 is a part. the airhead/bimbo stereotype, which seems t apply to women who are overtly stereotypically feminine, either flamboyantly sexual or flamboyantly pink.

But my original attitude in the other thread was that was my own issue, it's not for me to judge, and women should be what they want.

And afterwards, I was trying to work out whether bias against these particularly 'feminine' women is feminist or patriarchal - or personal dressed up as either.

I still think diversity takes priority.

Edited February 5, 2015 by feral chile

[kaosmark2]

When it has been said, on this thread, that an intelligent head is what some people find attractive, a reasoned debate ensued.

When I said a similar thing, the response was 'bullshit', and a lot of ridicule.

Why is that?

It didn't upset me, I'm just curious

It wasn't ridicule, it was banter

[feral chile]

It wasn't ridicule, it was banter

yes, there was quite a bit of banter in The Accused, too.

[feral chile]

Anyway, we all know women bitch/ridicule and men banter/take the piss.

It's all good clean fun.

[russycarps]

Anyway, we all know women bitch/ridicule and men banter/take the piss.

It's all good clean fun.

I think that is one of the "everyday issues" I would dislike most about being a women.

That, and having to sit down to wee.

[gary1979666]

I think that is one of the "everyday issues" I would dislike most about being a women.

That, and having to sit down to wee.

Sometimes I'm glad of the rest though

[kaosmark2]

very good...

I was intrigued with the idea that when men have certain types of conversations, it's accepted as banter.

It feels like a variation on racism to me. When people say racist comments and say "oh, it's only a joke" I can't help but confront it. The same when I'm with other guys, and they might say something like "look at that poofter haha" (because he's well groomed), I don't accept it as banter. I'll at the very least not acknowledge, but I'm just as likely to point out what a daft thing it is to say.

It depends on the topic and circumstances. I think mockery can be an enjoyable and acceptable social thing, but if it directly upsets someone or reinforces a damaging stereotype, it obviously isn't on.

The thing to me is its important to confront people when they cross the line, rather than to try and eliminate jests

[kaosmark2]

I think that is one of the "everyday issues" I would dislike most about being a women.

That, and having to sit down to wee.

I sometimes sit down for a piss if I'm not in a rush and am at home. I find it more relaxing somehow.