What women (don't) want.

[feral chile]

a decision she makes in a patriarchal environment, where the examples she has of what is 'approved' is defined by...?

Only women can decide on whether she has an abortion (in the UK) - I'm aware that at the beginning this wasn't the case, I'm not sure if even now, technically a doctor can veto it, is it still based on particular criteria in theory? (having the baby would cause harm, I can't remember what the exact criteria was)

[russycarps]

is there even a word for a sexually repressed male?

tonyblair

[eFestivals]

it's a bit of a complicated example though, because for heterosexuals, we do have a vested interest in attracting each other.

yep - tho do you really think that's what the woman is doing?

[eFestivals]

Only women can decide on whether she has an abortion

and the criteria for her decision is formed where....?

[feral chile]

tonyblair

ah, clearly not then.

is it really unthinkable for a male to be sexually repressed

(joking aside?)

[feral chile]

yep - tho do you really think that's what the woman is doing?

Well, I once worked with someone who never stopped talking about her boobs, flirting and 'threatening' to get them out - and ran round the pub screaming she was wearing a thong - so I think some women do. She's not doing it to be oppressed, is she?

I don't know what to make of this, but the guy she fancied gave her a lap dance, and seemed quite annoyed on the following Monday, blaming it on peer pressure.

Where that stands in all this, I'm unsure, and confused.

(He also used to choose to sit by me, because all the girls decided he was hot, and he knew I didn't agree, since I'd drunkenly lost all diplomacy and told him so).

Edited February 20, 2015 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

it would make more sense if you asked me to define something that wasn't value-ridden.

But that's the whole point around patriarchy. Every single thing is stuffed full with male values.

Tell me something that isn't! (which is me "asked me to define something that wasn't value-ridden.")

It's a challenge to you - but one I believe you can only fail at.

[eFestivals]

Well, I once worked with someone who never stopped talking about her boobs, flirting and 'threatening' to get them out - and ran round the pub screaming she was wearing a thong - so I think some women do. She's not doing it to be oppressed, is she?

Isn't she?

Don't you think she might be acting like that because she thinks men are obsessed with those sorts of things, and it was spilling out onto her whole life? And that it's an 'oppression to please men' that's behind it all?

[russycarps]

ah, clearly not then.

is it really unthinkable for a male to be sexually repressed

(joking aside?)

I dont think it's unthinkable at all. I dont think a lot of men are as obsessed with sex as you think

[feral chile]

Isn't she?

Don't you think she might be acting like that because she thinks men are obsessed with those sorts of things, and it was spilling out onto her whole life? And that it's an 'oppression to please men' that's behind it all?

I do, but since I'm programmed to do the exact opposite, I find her behaviour difficult to relate to.

I think it was a form of validation to her.

And yes, I'm aware that this supports your argument, but I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

[feral chile]

I dont think it's unthinkable at all. I dont think a lot of men are as obsessed with sex as you think

Well I don't think they are, in reality. But do you think culturally we still expect them to be?

Back in The Valleys dark ages, the onus was on the woman not to get herself in a sexually exploited situation, because it was just assumed it was natural for men to be sexual predators, and up to women to avoid their advances.

Do you think attitudes have changed deep down?

I did, but the tonyblair ribbing suggests not.

[russycarps]

Well I don't think they are, in reality. But do you think culturally we still expect them to be?

Back in The Valleys dark ages, the onus was on the woman not to get herself in a sexually exploited situation, because it was just assumed it was natural for men to be sexual predators, and up to women to avoid their advances.

Do you think attitudes have changed deep down?

I did, but the tonyblair ribbing suggests not.

I really dont know. It seems to me young men and young women these days are equally promiscuous so I guess attitudes are changing. (probably I've just read too many daily mail articles though...)

But you're right, I guess a man admitting to being a repressed is a bit strange. I suppose a lot of people would view them as less manly.

Edited February 20, 2015 by russycarps

[lost]

But you're right, I guess a man admitting to being a repressed is a bit strange. I suppose a lot of people would view them as less manly.

Seems quite common in Japan and I've a few friends similar. I don't know if its strictly being sexually repressed but I've a few friends who see the whole package of what a women wants in man ( great career, family, kids etc..) associate that with getting sex and are happy to opt out. Maybe suppressing it subconsciously.

[feral chile]

I don't think tonyblair would think of himself as repressed, rather as respectful.

Do you think it possible for men to express sexual attraction towards women without demeaning them?

[russycarps]

Seems quite common in Japan and I've a few friends similar. I don't know if its strictly being sexually repressed but I've a few friends who see the whole package of what a women wants in man ( great career, family, kids etc..) associate that with getting sex and are happy to opt out. Maybe suppressing it subconsciously.

I wonder how often they masturbate (rhetorical question!). Or if they've opted out of sexual thoughts altogether?

I know some men that have no interest in sex whatsoever. It's not a common viewpoint. Or maybe it is more common than we think but people think it's not something to be open about.

I don't think tonyblair would think of himself as repressed, rather as respectful.

Do you think it possible for men to express sexual attraction towards women without demeaning them?

Tony thinking that spunking on a girls tits was the height of depravity suggests a degree of repression I think.

Is finding a woman sexually attractive demeaning in itself? I dont know. I guess there are different ways of expressing that attraction, each of which have a different degree of demeaningness (ok I made that word up).

Is the actual act of sexual intercourse itself demeaning to a woman?

Edited February 20, 2015 by russycarps

[feral chile]

I wonder how often they masturbate (rhetorical question!). Or if they've opted out of sexual thoughts altogether?

I know some men that have no interest in sex whatsoever. It's not a common viewpoint. Or maybe it is more common than we think but people think it's not something to be open about.

Tony thinking that spunking on a girls tits was the height of depravity suggests a degree of repression I think.

Is finding a woman sexually attractive demeaning in itself? I dont know. I guess there are different ways of expressing that attraction, each of which have a different degree of demeaningness (ok I made that word up).

Is the actual act of sexual intercourse itself demeaning to a woman?

Lots of women find men's sexual attention demeaning.

What I'm struggling with, is working out whether it has to be that way.

I have to admit that, because of weight fluctuations, I know I feel less validated when I'm thinner, and therefore subject to male scrutiny.

And I've heard other women express the opposite. But that's still basing your self validation on males. (yes neil, I concede that we do, but I don't think we should).

Now, what neil and I are disagreeing over, is whether each sex is subject to scrutiny from the opposite sex, and from the same sex as themselves, in the same ways?

Edited February 20, 2015 by feral chile

[russycarps]

Lots of women find men's sexual attention demeaning.

What I'm struggling with, is working out whether it has to be that way.

I have to admit that, because of weight fluctuations, I know I feel less validated when I'm thinner, and therefore subject to male scrutiny.

And I've heard other women express the opposite. But that's still basing your self validation on males. (yes neil, I concede that we do, but I don't think we should).

Now, what neil and I are disagreeing over, is whether each sex is subject to scrutiny from the opposite sex, and from the same sex as themselves, in the same ways?

but they dont find all sexual attention demeaning, surely. I mean, do these women find their partners sexual attention demeaning? Or is it only from strangers? and if strangers, is it only strangers they dont find attractive in return?

I mean everyone likes being told they are found attractive by someone they themselves find attractive, no?

In all honesty, it's not a topic I have ever given much deep thinking to.

Edited February 20, 2015 by russycarps

[feral chile]

but they dont find all sexual attention demeaning, surely. I mean, do these women find their partners sexual attention demeaning? Or is it only from strangers? and if strangers, is it only strangers they dont find attractive in return?

I mean everyone likes being told they are found attractive by someone they themselves find attractive, no?

In all honesty, it's not a topic I have ever given much deep thinking to.

Well, this is the thing isn't it? Maybe the woman I mentioned was trying to attract the attention of one particular male, and she had to buy into the whole male defined sexuality thing, because he did.

back in the 90s, I remember getting really annoyed by a young man stating that women who dressed provocatively were clearly wanting male attention.

Foe one thing, they might want particular male attention. Or they might just feel good dressed like that. It might well be male defined, but it's a subtle thing, sometimes, this.

From the woman's perspective, it might make her feel sexy and in control/more confident, she might say she's doing it to please herself.

Now, you can argue against that, but it's debatable.

some men like their women looking sexy, I'd say most don't. They might want women looking sexy, but not their women (not where other men can see, anyway).

You can see why feminists talk about patriarchy and ownership.

Edited February 20, 2015 by feral chile

[krisskross]

but patriarchy is not only the past, it's the here and now too.

And, for as far as I can see, the future too.

it's a view, but one that doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny.

True, but its impossible to tackle as a whole. Thousands of years of cultural bias isn't going to change overnight. Its still around but decaying Attacking it directly will make people defend it while chipping away at the foundations will take it down cleaner.

But it's so very much more than just the genders of scientists. It's all of science too.

So all you're doing if patriarchy isn't attempted to be addressed is schooling a new generation of scientists with patriarchy, and nothing regarding patriarchy has changed.

You might even conclude it's a great win for men, because men have now got women doing more of the work, allowing men to put their feet up more than they did already.

Clearly, it was a single example.

There are finite resources, less people putting their feet up at all. With a bit of positive selection there will be a greater number of women breaking through to the top. At the same time the hierarchical structure will also be flattened.

[krisskross]

I really dont know. It seems to me young men and young women these days are equally promiscuous so I guess attitudes are changing. (probably I've just read too many daily mail articles though... )

But you're right, I guess a man admitting to being a repressed is a bit strange. I suppose a lot of people would view them as less manly.

Contraception has made a massive difference. The risks have been minimized.

Yeah, there's definitely a different drive when it comes to sex. There's only a tiny resource drain for sperm compared to releasing an egg.

[feral chile]

Behavior is a difficult one, its easier to look at biological differences first - and thats complex enough..

This gives a broad overview on the biology of sex; http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

The last line of "if you want to know whether someone is male or female, it may be best just to ask." gives some indication of where scientific knowledge stops and society needs to take over. Yes, there are genetic differences that predispose you to almost anything but how society responds to that is key.

If behavior is linked to gender its adding a whole new layer of complexity. If men to act in one way and women another, would it be better to accept that or to overcome it and teach them to act in the same way. This all then gets tied into mate choice / sexual selection anyway which could very well make any efforts to change behavior meaningless. If there is a drive for women to mate with the strongest / most aggressive / alpha male and for men to mate with a woman who he's certain any children will be his, would this need to be changed somehow as well?

hi krisscross, you've got a broken link.

[krisskross]

Hmm, works for me. Google 'sex redefined nature' and its the first in the news hit.

[krisskross]

I can't get away from how much hierarchy is linked to society. It cant be that its just a male trait. Without it there would be no concept of measurement and learning.

[feral chile]

Hmm, works for me. Google 'sex redefined nature' and its the first in the news hit.

That's extremely thought provoking, thanks krisskross.

[feral chile]

I can't get away from how much hierarchy is linked to society. It cant be that its just a male trait. Without it there would be no concept of measurement and learning.

I think you'd have female hierarchical structures too.

You could have comparisons within yourself, if you know what I mean. I don't think you could do away with a ranking system altogether, not with primates at least.

That's been a big feminist issue too, I'd forgotten about that - competition being a male value.

Or not forgotten so much as forgotten how much I had internalised it.

Edited February 20, 2015 by feral chile