What women (don't) want.

[feral chile]

And that one is quite amusing too.

Though the Tiresias story always seemed a bit odd to me, he was turned into a women as a form of punishment (!), from which he was finally released (!!) to become a man again, if girls have almost all the fun, why was he so keen to return to his manly existence? Sorry, rethorical question. There must be enormous compensations in being a man. (Btw, the mentioned quarrel between Zeus and Hera that Tiresias settles was routed in Zeus's notorious philandering with many beautiful women, plus the odd handsome boy. This is said to have made his wife very unhappy. If women have much more fun..... well, never mind.)

In my 20s I had a bit more time on my hands, so I read Casanova's memoirs - the whole unabridged version, which is cracking read, although a very long one. He chased a lot of women (and some of them were quite reluctant), but at some point he discusses whever man or women have more fun when it comes to it, and he is convinced that it's the women. His reasoning is that they usually risk getting pregnant, and he reckons that this would be enough to totally put him off. I was quite amused by that.

Interesting how perceptions have changed.

It's quite interesting that men are seen as the ones most likely to have impulsive sex, yet are also meant to be more rational.

So...are they really seen as more likely, or just that it's more socially acceptable?

I can't make up my mind whether this one always works against women. I think it feeds into lots more myths, such as it's always the woman who wants marriage and monogamy, when usually feminists (or the version I experienced) think of it as male attempts to possess and control.

I suppose it depends...men could want to possess their partners, yet remain free themselves.

So men are driven to impulse, and women are immoral sluts.

[feral chile]

so you want to be thought of as a shit mother?

Or might you want to be thought of as a successful mother?

I wasn't talking about just jobs. People measure their own success against the things which are most important to them, but also against the things where they do have some success. There's no point wanting to be thought of as a successful brain surgeon if you've no chance of ever being a brain surgeon.

I think what Kat was saying is that it's her own goals she's wanting to achieve, not some social perception of success, whether at motherhood or anything else.

[eFestivals]

I think what Kat was saying is that it's her own goals she's wanting to achieve, not some social perception of success, whether at motherhood or anything else.

It was more that 'internalised-success' I was referencing anyway - but also acknowledging that others (with a half-decent knowledge of you) tend to see it too.

When you think of another person, what you think of are their traits, what they say and do, etc, where what they themselves feel are their successes tends to come out.

[feral chile]

Care to tell me how a women bursting into tears because she doesn't like the way a convo has gone is a sign of anything but weakness?

there are lots of reasons to cry, frustration, anger, hurt, happiness...it's no ore a sign of weakness than any other display of emotion, including raising your voice etc.

[feral chile]

It was more that 'internalised-success' I was referencing anyway - but also acknowledging that others (with a half-decent knowledge of you) tend to see it too.

When you think of another person, what you think of are their traits, what they say and do, etc, where what they themselves feel are their successes tends to come out.

yes, I thought you were, but I don't think Kat was.

It's always going to be difficult to assess what are our 'own' goals, (in the context of this thread), because what we think of as success is culturally determined.

I'm uncomfortable with a lot of FB statuses I see, where parenting seems to be being conducted there.

I'm back to my shaming aversion again, I think.

[feral chile]

Regarding crying - sometimes not showing how distressed you are can be counter productive. I've had to deal with people who seem aggressive, and only when the situation is resolved do they admit they'd been at the end of their tether.

Sometimes people show fear/distress by crying, sometimes by shouting. I think support's more readily offered if you cry, because it's easier to tell you need support.

I don't think of either styles of communication as weak or strong, more as how they'll be interpreted.

It does depend so much on context, though.

Edited February 23, 2015 by feral chile

[Katster]

so you want to be thought of as a shit mother?

Or might you want to be thought of as a successful mother?

I wasn't talking about just jobs. People measure their own success against the things which are most important to them, but also against the things where they do have some success. There's no point wanting to be thought of as a successful brain surgeon if you've no chance of ever being a brain surgeon.

I want to know I am a great mother. Other people can think what they like.

[Katster]

If you like to please yourself, and you do, then that's a success, no?

Yes. But I don't please myself to be thought of as successful by others. I do it to please myself.

[feral chile]

I want to know I am a great mother. Other people can think what they like.

I think what neil's trying to get at is that you'd measure your success by what your criteria for being a great mother are.

So a great mother = a successful (on your terms, not others) mother.

[eFestivals]

I want to know I am a great mother. Other people can think what they like.

the first will require the endorsement of those others, I'd say.

But I agree with the general idea you're going with - where you want to think yourself successful, and that's good enough.

[eFestivals]

I think what neil's trying to get at is that you'd measure your success by what your criteria for being a great mother are.

So a great mother = a successful (on your terms, not others) mother.

thank you, you've said it better than I'd have ever managed.

[Katster]

I think what neil's trying to get at is that you'd measure your success by what your criteria for being a great mother are.

So a great mother = a successful (on your terms, not others) mother.

Exactly, my terms, not others.

[feral chile]

the first will require the endorsement of those others, I'd say.

But I agree with the general idea you're going with - where you want to think yourself successful, and that's good enough.

To an extent, I think it can be flexible in some ways.

I've heard someone saying their sister in law was a crap mother because she went out once a week, to something like bingo.

She wasn't abandoning toddlers in an empty house or anything. Her youngest was 23

Ironically, the man who was judging her had younger kids himself and played in a skittles team.

Edited February 23, 2015 by feral chile

[midnight]

The crying thing is interesting. At work I deal with some deeply unpleasant people face to face but more so on the phone. While I've managed to come through those conversations thus far without crying, there have been a couple of times where at the end of that phone call I have burst into tears. Usually it's frustration, or an emotional release in response to extreme provocation. Maybe others would go for a walk, punch a wall... Crying is a coping mechanism for some and in most cases involuntary I would have thought. I certainly haven't come across anyone who uses tears as a tool of manipulation in a work context, and I would have thought it's fairly easy to spot the manipulation in any other context. So it's not a very effective tactic?

I've seen lots of people I worked with cry over the years. Firstly, working with old people for a long time, well, they have a habit of dying, which is upsetting for everyone. In my other jobs, like you, we've had tears after encounters with incredibly difficult members of the public, similar politicians, and once or twice due to sheer work-overload, it was just stress in the oh-my-god-I-can't cope way. I haven't seen anyone punching a wall yet, but I do remember stamping my foot once during an argument I had with my then manager. The guy looked shocked (ok, I had also threatened to take him to an industrial tribunal, maybe that was the reason). Perhaps I should have cried instead? Trouble is, I can't cry on demand. One of the most frustrating things for me is someone assuming that I'm crying to "blackmail" them. Because when I do cry, I am really upset, and I don't need any of this. At all. This has never happened to me at work, though.

[midnight]

I meant more concerned than the parents in the article, not more concerned than for a daughter.

I'd be pretty worried if they wanted to enlist anyway.

(It's always a lot clearer in my head than written down lol)

Ah, I got it now, I thought you were comparing the media coverage for the missing girls to the article about the young men, sorry.

I bet these parents are deeply worried, though. They just don't feel they have the right to show it in public. Their adult sons' actions contribute to the conflicts and problems this community already experiences, so the parents have to condemn the behaviour.

[midnight]

It's quite interesting that men are seen as the ones most likely to have impulsive sex, yet are also meant to be more rational.

So...are they really seen as more likely, or just that it's more socially acceptable?

I can't make up my mind whether this one always works against women. I think it feeds into lots more myths, such as it's always the woman who wants marriage and monogamy, when usually feminists (or the version I experienced) think of it as male attempts to possess and control.

I suppose it depends...men could want to possess their partners, yet remain free themselves.

So men are driven to impulse, and women are immoral sluts.

I'm a bit reluctant to come out with my thoughts on marriage here, with some many married people around.....

[eFestivals]

wow, tony has proved that men cry sometimes too. Who knew?

[LondonTom]

I've heard someone saying their sister in law was a crap mother because she went out once a week, to something like bingo.

She wasn't abandoning toddlers in an empty house or anything. Her youngest was 23

I say similar to my mum when she abondons me to my Dad's cooking for a few days to vist my sister at Uni (I'm 25 )

Edited February 24, 2015 by LondonTom

[eFestivals]

Just because it has relevance to the general idea of this thread....

So I've been led to believe, Glastonbury Festival have been going out of their way this year to get more female acts onto their stages, because it would be very easy for them to book a full line-up of just men without realising it.

I've mentioned this in one or more Glasto threads, and people are talking about it being "positive discrimination", and not necessarily in a good way.

[eFestivals]

I remember Joni Mitchell losing it a bit at the IOW festival

nothing to do with her being smashed off her head, of course.

[feral chile]

This is not necessarily a woman's issue, it's about ginger stigma, and reminded me of a poem that gets me every time:

http://metro.co.uk/2015/02/20/womans-open-letter-to-person-who-tutted-at-her-for-using-disabled-toilet-sends-a-powerful-message-5071868/?ito=v-b

http://thereaderonline.co.uk/2009/09/07/featured-poem-the-colour-of-his-hair-by-a-e-housman/

For those who don't know the poem, it's actually about the trial of Oscar Wilde, and persecution of homosexuals: the article discussed the treatment of Alan Turing, which never fails to sadden me:

The Colour of His Hair

Oh who is that young sinner with the handcuffs on his wrists?

And what has he been after, that they groan and shake their fists?

And wherefore is he wearing such a conscience-stricken air?

Oh they’re taking him to prison for the colour of his hair.

‘Tis a shame to human nature, such a head of hair as his;

In the good old time ’twas hanging for the colour that it is;

Though hanging isn’t bad enough and flaying would be fair

For the nameless and abominable colour of his hair.

Oh a deal of pains he’s taken and a pretty price he’s paid

To hide his poll or dye it of a mentionable shade;

But they’ve pulled the beggar’s hat off for the world to see and stare,

And they’re haling him to justice for the colour of his hair.

Now ’tis oakum for his fingers and the treadmill for his feet,

And the quarry-gang on Portland in the cold and in the heat,

And between his spells of labour in the time he has to spare

He can curse the God that made him for the colour of his hair.

A. E. Housman (1859 – 1936)

That poem gets to me every time

[feral chile]

Welsh version of 50 Shades with alternative ending:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/film-news/only-fifty-shades-grey-been-8615941

In Fifty Shades

Ana is spanked for the first time by Christian and the experience leaves her both enticed and slightly confused.

In the Welsh version

Ana is spanked for the first time by Christian.

She punches him in the face, calls him a chauvinistic pig and leaves, snapping the aerial off his Subaru as she storms off down the street.

The pair never see each other again.

[feral chile]

Now... this is something that I dwell on, possibly far too much...

But, accepting 'some' generalisations, is like accepting all generalisations.

You know how much I respect you and your view....

I don't know, it feels like you're so aware of so much, but some other instinct gets in the way somehow. I don't understand why you put so much emphasis on your experiences of feminism and everything else. Yes, you're experiences resonate strongest, but you appear to be aware enough to understand how other people might experience things differently to you, but that doesn't help somehow

I didn't write it. I was well aware how it reinforces Welsh stereotypes, and I must admit, when I read 50 Shades, my reaction was 'why doesn't she tell him to get lost'. Though resorting to violence might be going too far, I recognise the emotional reaction to Christian that prompted it.

That has been the reaction of most women I know. Unfortunately, not all, and even more disturbing is that some of the book's fans are women that I know perfectly well have been victims of abuse.

Was it the Welsh stereotyping that you meant? I wasn't sure what generalising you were referring to, otherwise.

This book isn't about BDSM. It's about a damaged man controlling a young woman.

If you're saying it's not that easy to escape an abuser, I agree, which is why I find this book particularly dangerous.

(i'm not really sure what you're getting at here, abuse is abuse, I don't think you need to be a feminist to know it's not something to romanticise.)

Edited February 24, 2015 by feral chile

[bunique]

In the "can men be feminists" camp:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/turkish-men-take-to-istanbuls-streets-in-skirts-to-protest-death-of-young-woman-10065020.html

Turkish men don miniskirts to highlight violence against women.

[feral chile]

In the "can men be feminists" camp:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/turkish-men-take-to-istanbuls-streets-in-skirts-to-protest-death-of-young-woman-10065020.html

Turkish men don miniskirts to highlight violence against women.

That's brilliant, a point well made.