What women (don't) want.

[kaosmark2]

I am never called a moron, by anyone, apart from you.

Moron.

[kaosmark2]

Is that a joke, or do you think I am one?

It was a joke, but given you didn't realise, I'm going to say yes

[eFestivals]

I am never called a moron, by anyone, apart from you.

I can only guess that you never meet others who challenge your opinions, then.

I have tried to ignore the name calling and attempted to get to the bottom of why you think I am a moron, and stupid, and all the other things you call me, only for it to carry on. If I occasionally get frustrated and reply in kind, it's hardly surprising.

Might it be because you pick an argument over having been called a moron, instead of ever trying to actually understand why?

I don't say it for fun, I say it because I'm seeing you as being exceptionally dim about whatever is being talked about at the time.

Rather like now in fact. When you're picking an argument over something I've not even said this time (aside from in jest, as an illustration), and are not spending any time on what I actually said of substance.

If you find it surprising that someone might think another a moron for their views, just stop a moment and consider what you're thinking right now of me. Spot the difference? Nope? Good.

Either that, or you can't even face the truth of yourself.

Edited February 26, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Nope. Lots of people challenge my opinions and views. I enjoy it. I'm quite insecure, but if I'm challenged without being treated like an idiot, I'll gladly take it on board.

but if you're being and idiot and treated like an idiot you're determined to stay an idiot.

Yeah, I got that part long ago.

[feral chile]

that's why I don't like it. I know it goes on all over the place, and if there's no Page 3 it will still go on, but every little helps.

The fact that some girls can be as confused as some men, seems an odd reason to not want a small bit of progress.

As has been said, men AND women will benefit from a society that stops perpetuating such stereotypes

I can see what you're saying, it's just that I don't see men ogling breasts as a sign of dominance in itself. I think it's related to something else.

Men who are possessive and controlling, on the other hand, I can see the connection straight away.

I don't know why I feel differently from when I was younger, because back in the early days f my involvement I was as much against all porn, all gender bias, as most feminists.

It might simply be down to my age, I don't really have to suffer much of this particular type of sexism, maybe I'm more inclined not to internalise it - I don't know.

It just doesn't set my alarm bells ringing in the way other things do.

[feral chile]

and yet, where this kicked off, you were doing the exact opposite, and screaming that anyone who disagreed was wrong, and undermining women.

I'm certainly very confused about what your angle actually is. I can't see any consistent take or direction.

Well, to be honest, it is confusing.

Women shouldn't have to be ashamed of their breasts. breasts are beautiful, both aesthetically and because of the nurturing of life that they give.

And the whole point of feminism is claiming back women's autonomy. Even if it's to do things we don't agree with.

So I'm ambivalent about women showing their breasts in a way that I'm not about other feminist issues.

[feral chile]

If you find it surprising that someone might think another a moron for their views, just stop a moment and consider what you're thinking right now of me. Spot the difference? Nope? Good.

Either that, or you can't even face the truth of yourself.

The difference is, if someone disagrees with you, you think they don't understand what you're saying.

So yes, you might think they're being obstinate, or stuck in a particular perspective, etc., but you wouldn't necessarily think they were a moron.

And even if you did, it's negative to call them one, rather than either not bothering, r trying to educate them.

Or not trying to work out where they're coming from.

[Katster]

I'm always whapping my baps out these days!

[feral chile]

I'm always whapping my baps out these days!

And you should be able to do so, and socially accepted as natural and beautiful.

[feral chile]

Don't you think, at least in part, that the fetishising (?) of breasts, is why some people are outraged, or upset when mums breast feed in public?

Yes.

This is why I'm ambivalent about it.

But then, is Page 3 about men being sexually attracted to breasts, or about dominating women?

And is the problem women baring their breasts, r the reaction to it as dirty or brazen?

Our cultural attitude towards sexuality is messed up. Page 3 women baring breasts s seen as degrading/dirty, so I presume men looking at them are seen as dirty.

I just wish we could stop thinking of sex as something depraved. And I especially wish we could stop thinking f heterosexual sex as women being oppressed by men.

(it's this combined with patriarchy that causes me conflict).

Edited February 26, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

Having just replied to feral, with a question, I realised why I do it. It's because I am unsure of most things. Rather than be accusatory, I feel more comfortable by asking for clarity. Yes, that might be cowardly or something, but that's how I am. There isn't much I'm sure of.

For now

Questions are not bad, tony. They're a way of opening up a conversation, of clarifying, of encouraging the other person to explore their thoughts.

And to question things leaves you open to learning.

http://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/questioning.html

Edited February 26, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

Talking about human predators - as a milk drinking omnivore, I'm feeling really evil after reading THIS.

But without the willpower to do the decent thing

https://www.thedodo.com/dairy-cow-calf-baby-rescue-1010627123.html

[feral chile]

Has anyone read these authors?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/25/women-writers_n_6738226.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

[bunique]

No, and I have a bad habit of steering away from female authors.

[bunique]

Although some of my favourite books are by women - Lionel Shriver and Donna Tartt off the top of my head

[kaosmark2]

Questions are not bad, tony. They're a way of opening up a conversation, of clarifying, of encouraging the other person to explore their thoughts.

And to question things leaves you open to learning.

http://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/questioning.html

While I agree in principle, I do think Tony takes it to an extreme. He enters debates, starting to contradict someone, and then (to my perception at least), tries to defend his idea by questioning it himself with punctuation. It comes across as not inquiring, but as passive-aggressive, confrontational while being afraid to actually contradict. I do think Neil is overly keen to insult many people, but the core reason behind his criticism of Tony I feel is valid.

I don't insult Tony, because it's not constructive and I'm not sure it'll change anything, however if we're discussing his style of posting, debating, raising issues, I'm going to say that his needs even more work than Neil's excessive confrontation, because it restricts the potential for constructive debate far more. Neil thrives on argument, and that can have a negative impact in some discussions, but Tony appears (emphasis on appearance because I am not an internet mind-reader), to need external validation for every point he raises. It's not helpful, it's not engaging. It's offputting and awkward.

[midnight]

I'm going to put this into the quote in italics, to make sure I don't get muddled between the different points:

I liked this. I think you're right, the artist was intending to portray breasts as they really are, and some of the stories in there seemed to agree.

Yes, I chuckled at her husband's reaction ("but they don't like like they do in magazines!").

Bits I liked:

'The Christian church has had a lot to do with women feeling negative about their bodies and ashamed of their sexuality. I think men are probably quite afraid of women's power to bring forth life and feed their babies. That's probably part of the reason women have been oppressed and made to feel ashamed'.

Presenting women as evil temptresses and weak creatures right from the start of the bible certainly has something to do with it. And Mary had to be a virgin in order to be an honourable exception!

'I said to my husband, "Do you mind having a wife with only one breast?" He said, "Would you mind if I lost a leg?" I said, "Of course not!" "So there you go." We talked about everything, and that is why we had 52 happy years'.

After what this couple had been through in the war, they probably took a lot of things in their stride that would've freaked other people out. Would he really dump the woman who'd got him out of this camp because she'd lost a breast? The analogy with the leg isn't great, because in everyday life, the adjustments that would have to be made for this are much greater, but it was a good way of conveying to the woman what really mattered. Good for them, it was a very moving account of their relationship.

I was extremely sad about the women, including the last one, who felt pressured into sex.

The way the first one talks about it made me think that it is probably very common. She seemed surprised by how upset she was afterwards? That's telling too.

The opinion about Page 3:

'I think what Page 3 does is very damaging to young women. It's like: "This is the benchmark; this is what men find attractive. I don't look like this; therefore I can't be attractive to men." It affects our perception of beauty, and makes young women think they are valued for their sexuality, and not for their thoughts and actions'.

From conversations I've had, I'd say this is how many young women feel when faced with it. And I think we should show some consideration, and solidarity (old fashioned word) with them, even if some of us think it's no big deal. We're hardly deprived by not having page 3.

And one of the other comments:

'I used to get very venomous looks from girls in the changing rooms at school when we had PE. Some girls thought that I must have had surgery to enhance them. I was a 34GG'.

This is why I'm a bit reluctant to condemn Page 3. It's not the only distorted body image women have, you also have the stick thin model. You also have aspirations to marry successful men.

I can't articulate this very well. The last 2 things are just as damaging to equality, but breasts seem more threatening.

I think the crux here is that these other girls thought she'd had enlargements, presumably to impress men, something like an advantage, and the reactions she had from some of the boys are telling - "having naturally large breasts reduced is like slapping God in the face" - although she must have told people that she wanted them reduced because she was uncomfortable and in pain. I can't see the contradiction you seem to find here, tbh, to me it's 2 sides of the same coin (fixation on what a certain body part should look like, and what some men are perceived to want).

Do women react differently towards women being proud of their breasts, and women being proud of their trim figure? Or aspiring to lose weight? You might feel sympathetic towards a woman trying to lose weight, because she's aspiring to an unrealistic ideal, but big breasted women who flaunt them seem to be treated like some kind of traitors - collaborators with the enemy. Co conspirators in the oppression of women, in a way that slimmers are not (though I'm not sure about WAGs and the like).

Why is that?

I don't think I can properly comment on women who are proud of their breasts, because to me that's just totally irrational and I don't get it. Pride, to me, is linked to achievement. Someone (think it was Jump) mentioned being proud of muscles that had been shaped and built up by regular workouts, that is something I can understand, or perhaps the effort that goes into maintaining a trim figure, but being proud of the shape or size of one's breasts is bizarre to me. It's a genetic coincidence, nothing more. Like the colour of my eyes. I'm pleased about the colour of my eyes, I like it, I've been complimented for it and that is all very nice and enjoyable, but nothing to be proud of. I've done nothing to make them the way they are. Ditto breasts, height.....

I've already said what I think about the weight business earlier on. It's tricky where it is linked to health and someone is really overweight. There are some interesting thoughts on how women are affected by the drive for unnatural thinness in The Beauty Myth.

Marrying an heiress is a dream for some men too, I'd say, as is marrying a wealthy and successful man for some girls. That won't go away until we are less fixed on money/success. I'd like to focus on the things that can be changed, something like this is pie in the sky. Mind, quite a few people hook up with someone they really like in the end, even if his (or her) financial prospects aren't that great. We might as well, there aren't enough wealthy men to go around, let alone wealthy women.

Edited February 27, 2015 by midnight

[midnight]

Don't you think, at least in part, that the fetishising (?) of breasts, is why some people are outraged, or upset when mums breast feed in public?

Exactly. And in some people, the whole fetish and breasts-are-to-do-with-sex-only has gone as far as this:

http://metro.co.uk/2014/10/14/josie-cunningham-breastfeeding-is-vile-and-borderline-incest-4905498/

You couldn't make it up.

[midnight]

Has anyone read these authors?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/25/women-writers_n_6738226.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

No.

[midnight]

Btw, thanks for the above explanation, kaosmark.

I'd been wondering for a while what exactly winds people up so much.

[kaosmark2]

I'd been wondering for a while what exactly winds people up so much.

People wind each other up, at the core of it.

[eFestivals]

The difference is, if someone disagrees with you, you think they don't understand what you're saying.

Not quite. I realise they're not getting what I'm saying.

So yes, you might think they're being obstinate, or stuck in a particular perspective, etc., but you wouldn't necessarily think they were a moron.

And even if you did, it's negative to call them one, rather than either not bothering, r trying to educate them.

Or not trying to work out where they're coming from.

The education I've already tried. Where they're coming from I've got.

Meanwhile, what I actually say never gets addressed.

You know I'm still waiting to be told what isn't male defined, right? And no one is addressing the idea you're putting forwards that you're too clever for other people to understand you, so you have to try to trick them into your thinking - which is =equality, right?

You might be happy fooling yourself and deliberately trying to fool others, but I'm not buying it. I see it for what it is, your own sense of superiority expressed large and your lack of self awareness of it.

And you think that I don't realise that you might feel insulted.

But you never think of the insult to others of your own words and attitudes. You think the nicey-nicey is beyond reproach just because what is nasty is said nicey-nicey. Wake up, FFS!

[feral chile]

Not quite. I realise they're not getting what I'm saying.

The education I've already tried. Where they're coming from I've got.

Meanwhile, what I actually say never gets addressed.

You know I'm still waiting to be told what isn't male defined, right? And no one is addressing the idea you're putting forwards that you're too clever for other people to understand you, so you have to try to trick them into your thinking - which is =equality, right?

You might be happy fooling yourself and deliberately trying to fool others, but I'm not buying it. I see it for what it is, your own sense of superiority expressed large and your lack of self awareness of it.

And you think that I don't realise that you might feel insulted.

But you never think of the insult to others of your own words and attitudes. You think the nicey-nicey is beyond reproach just because what is nasty is said nicey-nicey. Wake up, FFS!

I'm not deliberately trying to fool others. I haven't told any lies that I'm aware of (bY definition, then, I'm not lying).

I don't have a sense of superiority in the way you mean. I don't believe that anyone is intrinsically superior to anyone else.

I think people have skill sets, and people vary regarding how skiled they are.

I expect to be reasonably efficient in using positive language, I've been trained in negotiation techniques, and customer service, and therefore I know something about that. I know something about subjects I've studied, and I know I'm pretty good at working out subtext in official reports, and identifying trends, and how they'll affect the workplace.

On the other hand, I'm a technophobe, and have zero spatial awareness.

The reason I haven't taken you on board regarding what is male defined, is because lots of things can be argued either way.

If you're starting from the premise that everything's male defined, then the counter reactions will be nullified, because the reaction would, by definition, be male defined.

Look at the attempts to get more people in the workplace. A few decades ago, you had the male breadwinner, if working class was likely to be in production and heavy industry. He could keep a family on his single wage.

Now - we have 2 people working, whether that's to do with feminism, or whether it's because the job market has changed to open up opportunities where women have at least equal skills.

But this move towards greater equality hasn't given women more choices. Women now have to work to keep their families out of poverty, because one wage isn't enough.

I just think that an analysis of how society is changing is more useful than a top-down theory. Or at least, as useful.

And some of this is just because I don't like the suggestion behind the term patriarchy that carries with it that men are more powerful. And the fact that it then classifies society into 2 genders, acting in opposition.

I'd prefer to think of society as having gender biases, and get rid of as many stereotypes as we can. because if men weren't ridiculed for showing a softer side, then a lot of societal problems could be worked through anyway.

I think it plays into the hands of crafty politicians, otherwise, who use equality to make things worse for us, not better (equal low pay, equal raised pension age, etc.)

Edited February 27, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

I'm going to put this into the quote in italics, to make sure I don't get muddled between the different points:

Some interesting points here.

The reason I'm uneasy about women thinking she has an unfair advantage, is the same reason I'm uneasy with claims that women have slept their way to the top, or the latest one, that the 'airheads' are helping their 'airhead friends' to cheat their way to the top.

I agree completely that women have certainly found validation in their appearance in a way that men hadn't. I was going to say, traditionally, but I think it's relatively recent, isn't it? I think men used to be more appearance-focused in previous centuries.

It's the emphasis on competition that I'm not keen on, but I'm not sure whether that's because I think competition is a male defined value. Or just because I don't like the rivalry and division it generates.

Women still aspire to be thin (it's confusing, isn't it - maybe my childhood dislike of Barbie dolls has stood me in good stead, with their big boobs and flat stomachs). But we don't see this in a competitive way, and would we see a tummy tuck as an unfair advantage?

I genuinely haven't formed an opinion as to why this is. But that's the difference, I think, we don't treat women on a diet as if they've collaborated with the enemy, or whatever it is we think breast implants and stilettos do.

And I'm not being judgmental without including myself in this - I'm just as guilty of everything I've mentioned, and part of my stance is to challenge my own prejudice against 'brassy' and 'airhead' female stereotypes.

(Maybe that's what the difference is - we see women seeming to conform to unrealistic stereotypes, and somehow trying to be thin doesn't fit? Confused....)

Edited February 27, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

Exactly. And in some people, the whole fetish and breasts-are-to-do-with-sex-only has gone as far as this:

http://metro.co.uk/2014/10/14/josie-cunningham-breastfeeding-is-vile-and-borderline-incest-4905498/

You couldn't make it up.

Yes. I think society's attitude to sexuality is seriously messed up.

Though personally, I'd prefer to find a way to accept male admiration of breasts as non threatening, and not vile or obscene. (I'm not sure how, though).

rather than the other way around.

It's interesting that she thinks like this, based on what she does for a living. I'll have to think some more about that one.

As for Page 3, I'm not personally threatened by it, I used to be when I was young, maybe it's simply that it doesn't apply to me in the same way, so I assumed society had changed for the better. Mind you, The Sun's been banned from our house for a long time. I'm pretty sure my husband still looks at breasts, though.

I wouldn't care if they banned it though, and if it is causing women to feel threatened, maybe it would make a difference.