What women (don't) want.

[russycarps]

but as a man you're ok with that part (banter/taking the piss)?

"banter" is now a cover for being mean/mild bullying these days as far as I can see and I'm not ok with that.

Harmless taking the piss, such as suggesting you pull your pudding over university challenge after your comment in the other thread I am ok with, from men and women.

But not many men would let a woman get away with gentle taking the piss out of them.

[russycarps]

I sometimes sit down for a piss if I'm not in a rush and am at home. I find it more relaxing somehow.

hmm perhaps it's something I need to try then.

I often take my shirt of before having a shit at work. I find that relaxing somehow. I guess it's the same kind of thing.

[feral chile]

very good...

I was intrigued with the idea that when men have certain types of conversations, it's accepted as banter.

It feels like a variation on racism to me. When people say racist comments and say "oh, it's only a joke" I can't help but confront it. The same when I'm with other guys, and they might say something like "look at that poofter haha" (because he's well groomed), I don't accept it as banter. I'll at the very least not acknowledge, but I'm just as likely to point out what a daft thing it is to say.

It's peer pressure. It's a subtle pressure to conform. Even when it's good natured, or well meaning, it's still pervasive, maybe even more so. it's a lot harder to stand out against people you like, than it is against those whose opinions you don't value anyway.

It's what midnight was objecting to, when she pointed out my use of the word 'manipulate' and 'police' instead of just referring to less gender-charged expressions. And as I was using them to describe women, I should have been more careful, so as to avoid perpetuating the thing I most object to, which is peer pressure and social control/conformity.

Edited February 5, 2015 by feral chile

[kaosmark2]

"banter" is now a cover for being mean/mild bullying these days as far as I can see and I'm not ok with that.

Harmless taking the piss, such as suggesting you pull your pudding over university challenge after your comment in the other thread I am ok with, from men and women.

But not many men would let a woman get away with gentle taking the piss out of them.

This. I don't think anyone who tries to dismiss comments as "just banter" cares a jot about the recipient's feelings.

Taking the piss can be harmless, although as you say, sometimes people are prejudiced in regard to who they get insecure about Mocking them.

[kaosmark2]

hmm perhaps it's something I need to try then.

I often take my shirt of before having a shit at work. I find that relaxing somehow. I guess it's the same kind of thing.

Shirtless shits are definitely superior. I hate it when I rush dropping a turd.

[russycarps]

how harmless is a total rejection of my desire for intelligence over looks supposed to be taken?

well we have "known" you for several years now. I would like to think we can gauge what you can and cannot tolerate in the name of humour by now.

If I thought you would be genuinely upset by such a comment I would not make it. However, in this instance I think it would be quite absurd for you to be offended by anything said back then. And I dont believe you were then or are now.

[feral chile]

how harmless is a total rejection of my desire for intelligence over looks supposed to be taken?

it was not harmless at all. Up until that point, I was fairly convinced that there was nothing wrong these days with Page 3, because men were more enlightened, and it was more isolated bullying that was the problem. And not gender bias.

That part of the debate forced me to reassess, and then also other women's experiences.

[feral chile]

well we have "known" you for several years now. I would like to think we can gauge what you can and cannot tolerate in the name of humour by now.

If I thought you would be genuinely upset by such a comment I would not make it. However, in this instance I think it would be quite absurd for you to be offended by anything said back then. And I dont believe you were then or are now.

I don't think the issue became if tony felt bullied or not, which up till then was y view on page 3/women feeling offended by it.

it was more that it seemed like a challenge to more diverse means to express male sexuality. Tony wasn't just teased, his sexual preference was doubted.

You notice the difference in response when Katster made the same kind of comment.

[russycarps]

I don't think the issue became if tony felt bullied or not, which up till then was y view on page 3/women feeling offended by it.

it was more that it seemed like a challenge to more diverse means to express male sexuality. Tony wasn't just teased, his sexual preference was doubted.

You notice the difference in response when Katster made the same kind of comment.

oh right, I see what you mean.

It is drilled into us that "men prefer the physical side of things, women prefer the emotional side". Like porn, supposedly men get off on the images whereas women prefer a sexy storyline.

[fred quimby]

hmm perhaps it's something I need to try then.

I often take my shirt of before having a shit at work. I find that relaxing somehow. I guess it's the same kind of thing.

I assume you take it off in the toilet and not while in the office walking to the toilet.. The latter makes me laugh

[fred quimby]

Oh and I see from the News that they have translated the IS what women really want rules.

[russycarps]

no, I'm not offended in the least. But it wasn't backed up by an 'only joking comment' either. There were also accusations of bullshitting and lying (not from you). That isn't banter.

ah ok, I cant remember the specifics of the conversation now and it's impossible to find in that lengthy thread!

I suppose some people cannot comprehend a man not being turned on by physical features first and foremost.

[feral chile]

It did start a whole new train of thought for me, that never really took off in that thread. If Page 3 is not in any way an expression of female sexuality so much as female subjugation to male sexuality -

What would free (non-conditioned) expression of female sexuality be like? And what then, would male sexuality be like?

Would it mean men would have to learn NOT to be attracted by women's breasts?

Would t mean that we would live in a world where women didn't feel subjugated or intimidated by men being attracted to breasts?

What I'm most afraid of, is that whichever way women choose to express themselves, it will be assumed to be conditioned by patriarchy, and in that respect we're making patriarchy omnipotent and eternal, by forever giving it credit and power.

Edited February 5, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

Haven't we been conditioned, pretty much, to be turned on by women's breasts?

Possibly.

And if society eventually tries to overturn things, would this thread then be the other way around, with men feeling oppressed by matriarchy, and feeling they can't express their sexuality, and will we then question them as to whether they know what their sexuality really is?

If you took power and hierarchy out of the picture, if we didn't KNOW that most power s still in men's hands...

Couldn't the male worship of breasts be seen as a symbol of the nurturing mother, of a matriarchal influence?

Instead of the symbol it is now?

Is it power and oppression that's really the enemy, and gender merely the innocent casualty of war?

There's more than one way to look at things, is all I'm saying.

[gary1979666]

Come the revolution am I going to get strung up for liking boobs? God, I like bums too - I've had it!

That's the lust side of it though - that's what lust's about isn't it?

[russycarps]

that would appear to be the case...

I am turned on by 'attractive' women. I'm just more turned on by an empathetic personality. It's possibly the snob in me that translates that to a level of intelligence. If we agree then we must both be brainier, or more perceptive... etc etc

oops, I think that needs clarifying....

I said earlier, that it's a woman's intelligence that I look for. Implying I like women who are intelligent, when the reality is it might be a woman who has a similar level intelligence as me.

oops.. that needs clarifying too (getting a bit tied up in knots now!). I am definitely impressed by a woman (and a man, just not sexually) who is more knowledgeable (which I guess equates in some way with intelligence). I don't actually think of myself as particularly brainy.

I think there is a difference in what you look for in a partner in real life, and what you look for when (apologies for being crude) you switch your pc on to have a w*nk.

I suspect a lot of people share your view that intelligence is a turn on.

But, to paraphrase comments made in the other thread, you arent going to tear the head off it over a student from cambridge answering questions on university challenge....(unless she had smashing bangers of course )

Edited February 5, 2015 by russycarps

[gary1979666]

I think there is a difference in what you look for in a partner in real life, and what you look for when (apologies for being crude) you switch your pc on to have a w*nk.

I suspect a lot of people share your view that intelligence is a turn on.

But, to paraphrase comments made in the other thread, you arent going to tear the head off it over a student from cambridge answering questions on university challenge....(unless she had smashing bangers of course )

Is that so she can make you a sausage sarnie afterwards?

[russycarps]

There hasn't been much evidence of that on here

but you yourself said you seek out people of equal intelligence. By that rationale thick people are drawn to other thick people. So the people on here you refer to, are probably just thick and dont understand the concept you were trying to explain.

Dont forget, not everyone is of equal intelligence, and this forum is no different from any other walk of life. There are a mix of clever people and thickos here, and everyone in between.

[feral chile]

Come the revolution am I going to get strung up for liking boobs? God, I like bums too - I've had it!

That's the lust side of it though - that's what lust's about isn't it?

Made me think of Herland - anyone read it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herland_(novel)

[feral chile]

but nobody, not one guy said anything apart from along the lines of "yea, right!"

I seriously, seriously am not upset, or offended about it.

And you're right (about there being a mix of people here, just like anywhere else). Apart from, I try not to think of people who disagree with me as thickos (unlike some others ). They're just people who are a 'product' of different experiences and of a different upbringing to mine. I see it as part of what makes life interesting, the differences. And the most entertaining aspect of it, for me, is to try and engage in a healthy discussion.

And if I bore the pants off people, I'm sorry

Well whichever seduction technique works for you tony

(sorry couldn't resist).

Besides, I think I'm the biggest anorak here now, after the departure of cultseeker.

[russycarps]

but nobody, not one guy said anything apart from along the lines of "yea, right!"

I seriously, seriously am not upset, or offended about it.

And you're right (about there being a mix of people here, just like anywhere else). Apart from, I try not to think of people who disagree with me as thickos (unlike some others ). They're just people who are a 'product' of different experiences and of a different upbringing to mine. I see it as part of what makes life interesting, the differences. And the most entertaining aspect of it, for me, is to try and engage in a healthy discussion.

And if I bore the pants off people, I'm sorry

I just think most people were looking at it from the masturbation angle, rather than the wife/girlfriend angle (including me).

read into that what you will!

[russycarps]

Besides, I think I'm the biggest anorak here now, after the departure of cultseeker.

you've obviously not opened the game of thrones thread then......(and I suspect the dreaded football thread is full of them too, not that I've ever opened that one!)

[feral chile]

"oh just get on with it...!"

I miss (some of) his contributions

he didn't think Hendrix was a particularly special guitarist though... that sort of thing isn't to be taken lightly!

i miss cultseeker.

Some of his arguments were difficult to follow, and challenging, but I thought he was fun.

[gary1979666]

I just think most people were looking at it from the masturbation angle, rather than the wife/girlfriend angle (including me).

read into that what you will!

I think it was in the context of that - esp with page 3 references. I would think (hope) most people would want something more than look when looking longer terms (more than those special few minutes).

For me, if there's no banter between me and a girl (I suppose at 35 I should say woman), then the relationship is doomed. It's the back and forth of jokes which I really enjoy - almost like schoolyard teasing - i.e. picking on the girl you actually like. And a good, health sense of humour is massively important - and I find that links with intelligence too - if they haven't got a quick mind, then the banter falls flat.

[feral chile]

Just remembered a colleague coming in with a story about his girlfriend. She was stereotypically a sex kitten, leather mini skirt, stilettos etc.

One day, she was standing on a crowded train when someone gripped her backside. She grabbed his hand, pulled it up above her head, and shouted 'whose hand is this on my arse?'