What women (don't) want.

[eFestivals]

I think it's safer not to generalise. It's a bit of a tricky one - you have to represent gender fairly so as not to skew aspirations.

gender is not the only important factor in the mix.

[lost]

This is the sort of evidence I've been looking for, this is old though, 2008. I'd like to see if the predictions came close.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2009/jun/03/gender

Also for degree subjects (taken from the states) 9 out of the 10 degree subjects where the person doesn't end up in a skilled job within their field are female dominated..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/26/the-college-majors-most-and-least-likely-to-lead-to-underemployment

Do you think there are some jobs that are more suited to men? And some more suited to women?

I'd say the big one which tend to be poorly paid is child care. Don't think I've ever seen a male nanny, That's more to do with men being discriminated against rather than women though, with some people assuming he would be a pedophile.

Edited March 6, 2015 by lost

[bunique]

Re: childbirth. You might find this interesting Tony

http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2015/03/why-it-still-controversial-say-women-should-make-decisions-about-childbirth-a

[bunique]

Also for degree subjects (taken from the states) 9 out of the 10 degree subjects where the person doesn't end up in a skilled job within their field are female dominated..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/26/the-college-majors-most-and-least-likely-to-lead-to-underemployment

I'd say the big one which tend to be poorly paid is child care. Don't think I've ever seen a male nanny, That's more to do with men being discriminated against rather than women though, with some people assuming he would be a pedophile.

My daughter's nursery has two men - one working in the toddler room and one in the preschool room. They're both great and I love that the kids get to see a man in a non-stereotypical male role, as well as having positive male role models quite early in life. I don't know how common it is though.

[feral chile]

Re: childbirth. You might find this interesting Tony

http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2015/03/why-it-still-controversial-say-women-should-make-decisions-about-childbirth-a

I'd definitely agree that women should have more say. I don't know what the situation is now, 20 years ago they had the Patient's Charter and were supposed to listen to us. In my case, they ignored my wishes, which was for medical intervention, because I was high risk for foetal distress. And my baby nearly died. I've just found out their procedures destroyed my womb in the process. 10 minute induced labours tend to do that.

When my baby got moved to another hospital in intensive care, one of the other mothers in there (same hospital as mine) reckoned her baby suffered kidney failure because they DID listen to her wishes - and put her baby on the wrong formula milk without warning of the consequences.

The department was run by the most misogynistic and arrogant man I've ever had the misfortune to meet - I had to walk out of a meeting with him at one time, to avoid violence (on my part).

My local hospital got closed and I think either before, or under the new hospital, the male consultants were replaced by a (female) midwife led maternity department. I know the hospital my baby was sent to had complained about what they did to my son (I didn't initiate it, I was told in confidence).

When I was having my gynaecological problems first investigated, I had to see this same consultant, who never told me what had happened to my womb. I always suspected, but it's just been confirmed.

Anyway, my point is, I suspect hostility towards women given a choice, and both examples are strongly related to that, and this bloody consultant who wanted to play God.

Edited March 6, 2015 by feral chile

[russycarps]

My daughter's nursery has two men - one working in the toddler room and one in the preschool room. They're both great and I love that the kids get to see a man in a non-stereotypical male role, as well as having positive male role models quite early in life. I don't know how common it is though.

I don't see any reason why a man shouldn't do child care.

The only jobs I think men can do better than women are ones that rely on brute strength. Something like hod carrier, or front line firemen. (I know women do do these jobs)

I dont think there are any jobs only a woman can do is there?

Edited March 6, 2015 by russycarps

[feral chile]

I don't see any reason why a man shouldn't do child care.

The only jobs I think men can do better than women are ones that rely on brute strength. Something like hod carrier, or front line firemen. (I know women do do these jobs)

I dont think there are any jobs only a woman can do is there?

breast milk surrogate.

[russycarps]

breast milk surrogate.

Yes and I guess sperm donor is about the only job a man can do that a woman physically cannot.

[feral chile]

Yes and I guess sperm donor is about the only job a man can do that a woman physically cannot.

I think there are jobs excluded from the Equality Act and allowed to be gender specific, I'll see if I can find out.

http://www.businesszone.co.uk/blogs/sbeale/hr-blog/applying-genuine-occupational-requirement-recruitment

bottom paragraph. Not gender specific occupations, but employers can request gender specific applicants.

Edited March 6, 2015 by feral chile

[russycarps]

I think there are jobs excluded from the Equality Act and allowed to be gender specific, I'll see if I can find out.

Ta.

My mention of the fire service was badly worded above, I didn't mean any man is 'better' than any woman at it, but that the very best man would be, at the physical side of it. The women in the fire service are more able than the vast majority of 'normal' men

I hate posting here from my phone

[feral chile]

Ta.

My mention of the fire service was badly worded above, I didn't mean any man is 'better' than any woman at it, but that the very best man would be, at the physical side of it. The women in the fire service are more able than the vast majority of 'normal' men

I hate posting here from my phone

I think job requirements can take care of that - some graduate assessment tests might make it more difficult for older candidates if they're timed, but there'll be some older candidates who can succeed. And some younger ones who don't. So there might be some jobs similar as far as sex is concerned.

And that's fair enough, as long as it's a genuine requirement for the job.

[midnight]

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/oct/28/how-life-for-women-britain-getting-tougher

Of course not. Do you really think any disadvantaged group could achieve equality if non disadvantaged groups weren't onside?

I'm more concerned with groups who are losing their lives in the UK because nobody gives a shit.

Women as a discrete group, relatively speaking, aren't that badly off. If you're female, disabled and on benefits, you're in real difficulty.

It's just the wrong emphasis for me, that's all. I just don't think women as a group are as disempowered in the UK as people are making out.

It's a distraction from people who really do need our help, some of whom will be women, of course.

There should be enough equality and concern to go around, it’s not rationed, and if you think that there’s not enough focus on disabled people, then you could just concentrate your energies there and leave the people who think that there’s lots of work to do in other fields (like women’s equality) to doing their bit. Instead of telling them that they are being uncaring and unreasonable. I don’t think you really mean that, but this is exactly what the above comments read like to me. This keeps coming back like a bad penny. Who was it who was so much against shaming?

Of course, I could take a leaf out of your book (“Maggie T was a powerful woman, and just look at the Queen!”), and I could say, we now have laws against discrimination on grounds of disability, new public buildings must be constructed with accessibilty in mind, quite a few disabled people have jobs, some even good ones, UK schools integrate many disabled kids, people with mental health problems are no longer being locked up in cavernous asylums for life, Peter Dinklage must be absolutely rolling in cash - he’s got a main part in a stupendously successful TV show and the world loves him. Stephen Green is a parish councillor with Down syndrome, Reuben Reuter is a TV star kid with Down syndrome. Theodore Roosevelt was disabled and president of the USA, Ian Dury fronted a very successul rock band. Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles - both black and blind and massively successful. Oscar Pistorious, erm…. uh…. ahem, well, until he had that unfortunate accident with his gun he was quite rich, very famous and popular and doing alright for himself. So there – disabled people have never had it so good, they just need to exercise their rights and make the right choices, and what exacly are they complaining about?

Yeah, right. We all know that’s nonsense. As is the notion that all is well for women, and they just have to exercise their rights and make themselves believe that men don’t have most of the power.

yeah I don't know wtf is going on in this thread anymore.

And I agree with bunique, I cant remember the stats but I'm sure it's well over a 100 women a year in this country are killed each year due to domestic violence.

Deaths due to poverty are no doubt higher (albeit harder to classify), but this thread has been 67 pages of discussing women, I dunno why all of a sudden we need to feel guilty for not considering other minority groups!

Just over 100 women are killed by domestic violence pa in the UK, almost all of them by a (former) partner. About 30 men are killed each year too, but one third of them by other men (related to them, or living with them). The rest are killed by their female partners, but that includes the ones who are killed by women they have abused for some time.

Source here:

http://www.domesticviolencelondon.nhs.uk/1-what-is-domestic-violence-/25-domestic-abuse-against-men.html

I have, actually. Nobody wants to know about disabled women getting raped in their own homes by carers. Carers who can prevent those women from getting to anyone who could help them, because they have complete control over them. Or women who have been sectioned, who have their sexual history (promiscuity) included as part of their diagnosis of abnormal behaviour. Who then are incarcerated and have absolutely no power at all. No say in their own treatment or when they can be released.

If a disabled woman gets raped, she gets raped because she is a woman. The fact that she is disabled just makes it easier for the perpetrator.

Edited March 7, 2015 by midnight

[bunique]

I think I'm developing a girl crush on midnight

[feral chile]

I think I'm developing a girl crush on midnight

I look forward to midnight's contributions too. Edited March 7, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/oct/28/how-life-for-women-britain-getting-tougher

There should be enough equality and concern to go around, it’s not rationed, and if you think that there’s not enough focus on disabled people, then you could just concentrate your energies there and leave the people who think that there’s lots of work to do in other fields (like women’s equality) to doing their bit. Instead of telling them that they are being uncaring and unreasonable. I don’t think you really mean that, but this is exactly what the above comments read like to me. This keeps coming back like a bad penny. Who was it who was so much against shaming?

Of course, I could take a leaf out of your book (“Maggie T was a powerful woman, and just look at the Queen!”), and I could say, we now have laws against discrimination on grounds of disability, new public buildings must be constructed with accessibilty in mind, quite a few disabled people have jobs, some even good ones, UK schools integrate many disabled kids, people with mental health problems are no longer being locked up in cavernous asylums for life, Peter Dinklage must be absolutely rolling in cash - he’s got a main part in a stupendously successful TV show and the world loves him. Stephen Green is a parish councillor with Down syndrome, Reuben Reuter is a TV star kid with Down syndrome. Theodore Roosevelt was disabled and president of the USA, Ian Dury fronted a very successul rock band. Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles - both black and blind and massively successful. Oscar Pistorious, erm…. uh…. ahem, well, until he had that unfortunate accident with his gun he was quite rich, very famous and popular and doing alright for himself. So there – disabled people have never had it so good, they just need to exercise their rights and make the right choices, and what exacly are they complaining about?

Yeah, right. We all know that’s nonsense. As is the notion that all is well for women, and they just have to exercise their rights and make themselves believe that men don’t have most of the power.

Just over 100 women are killed by domestic violence pa in the UK, almost all of them by a (former) partner. About 30 men are killed each year too, but one third of them by other men (related to them, or living with them). The rest are killed by their female partners, but that includes the ones who are killed by women they have abused for some time.

Source here:

http://www.domesticviolencelondon.nhs.uk/1-what-is-domestic-violence-/25-domestic-abuse-against-men.html

If a disabled woman gets raped, she gets raped because she is a woman. The fact that she is disabled just makes it easier for the perpetrator.

What about a disabled man getting raped then?

[feral chile]

And how come you all completely ignore any posts where I agree with you and pounce on any where I don't?

I'm not posting for a bit now. I'm feeling too defensive and feeling too much hostility.

This is way too emotive a topic for me anyway, I should have stayed well clear.

Edited March 7, 2015 by feral chile

[midnight]

What about a disabled man getting raped then?

Depends on whether he gets raped by a man or a woman. There should be enough concern to go around for everyone.

I don't dispute that men get killed or raped or disadvantaged. But the numbers (also see domestic violence) are saying that women are more often at the receiving end.

Edited March 7, 2015 by midnight

[midnight]

And how come you all completely ignore any posts where I agree with you and pounce on any where I don't?

I'm not posting for a bit now. I'm feeling too defensive and feeling too much hostility.

This is way too emotive a topic for me anyway, I should have stayed well clear.

I'd thought we'd put the disability trumps everything stuff to bed, but apparently not, that's why I "pounced" on this one. I just don't get why we can't care about women's and disabled people's rights, it shouldn't be a competition. I am not being hostile (not intentionally, anyway), just thoroughly baffled.

And I never manage to reply to everything I'd want to, but that is just due to lack of time and too many distractions....

Edited March 7, 2015 by midnight

[feral chile]

I'd thought we'd put the disability trumps everything stuff to bed, but apparently not, that's why I "pounced" on this one. I just don't get why we can't care about women's and disabled people's rights, it shouldn't be a competition. I am not being hostile (not intentionally, anyway), just thoroughly baffled.

And I never manage to reply to everything I'd want to, but that is just due to lack of time and too many distractions....

Neither do I. I brought disability rights into this, because I thought as this was concerned with equality, people here would be more inclined to be concerned. Bunique told me it wasn't appropriate for this thread, and to take it somewhere else. There are other disability threads (which I started). You're probably not aware of them because nobody posts in them.

[feral chile]

Depends on whether he gets raped by a man or a woman. There should be enough concern to go around for everyone.

I don't dispute that men get killed or raped or disadvantaged. But the numbers (also see domestic violence) are saying that women are more often at the receiving end.

Agreed.

[eFestivals]

My daughter's nursery has two men - one working in the toddler room and one in the preschool room. They're both great and I love that the kids get to see a man in a non-stereotypical male role, as well as having positive male role models quite early in life. I don't know how common it is though.

a male friend of mine (now sadly deceased) worked as a child carer in a nursery about 20/25 years ago, and I know from the time he spent living with me and my (then infant) kid he was absolutely surperb with children.

He got run out of town, because it was 'weird' that a bloke should do that. He must have been wanting to touch the kids up.

Fucking sad.

[eFestivals]

I see feral has managed to find some squirrels, to avoid the difficult subjects again.

[feral chile]

Feral - what power (for want of a better word) do you think a woman has to avoid being raped?

if we can't eradicate rape, or treat men as potential rapists, and put them on a curfew. Sometimes we can't avoid it.

Sometimes it's more about empowering survivors. She's just experienced patriarchy at its most extreme, and will feel powerless, her self image and world view possibly completely annihilated. Rape isn't about unwanted sex. It's about complete depersonalisation.

There are various coping strategies she could use. They'd all be based on her attempts to regain control of her life, none are wrong, it's individual to her.

found this site, it might be upsetting for some people as it talks about empowerment principles used in therapeutic settings:

(it includes that meme you posted, bunique. I think I might have been unfair to russy, if that's all he was trying to point out to me. I read something else entirely into it)

http://rapecrisis.org.za/rape-in-south-africa/principles-of-empowerment/

Safety. It is vital that the survivor feels safe from further harm

Restoring control. It is essential that a survivor regains a sense of control over her life.

Ongoing support. Survivors are assured that they will receive good ongoing support on a journey that is only just beginning in the aftermath of the rape.

Respect . Every step in our counselling protocol is based on respect for the survivor. The empowerment model is based on the premise that the survivor has the tools for healing within her and respects her ability to determine her path of recovery

.

[eFestivals]

She's just experienced patriarchy

so patriarchy does exist, but only when it's useful for a point that you wish to make?

[feral chile]

so patriarchy does exist, but only when it's useful for a point that you wish to make?

Quote from the above site:

Rape is an act of violence. Victims are powerless to stop what is happening. Feelings of powerlessness and feelings of loss of control over life generally, often persist long after the rape itself. Such feelings are exacerbated when survivors encounter situations in the aftermath of the rape that once again make her feel powerless. We refer to this as ‘secondary trauma’ and examples include the forensic medical examination after a rape and hostile cross examination by a defence attorney in court.