What women (don't) want.

[midnight]

I see, some kind of SUN worshipping pagan ritual related to the rites of spring. Best leave it undisturbed then, until it comes out of hibernation, we tamper with the laws of nature at our peril! Might take some time anyway - it's been bloody freezing in London for the last few days.

Edited March 24, 2015 by midnight

[eFestivals]

'Tit Monday' or whatever it's called, is just like page 3 for me.

then that only proves how little reference you make to the facts of things.

The publisher called Murdoch and only Murdoch decides to put tits on page 3. The publisher here has not decided to start the 'tit monday' thread.

It's not the most offensive thing in the world, but by accepting it in any way, or joining in, you're be default condoning it, and perpetuating sexism.

not quite accurate.

Men have been conditioned to be sexist. If they act in a sexist manner it is not (necessarily) a concious choice, it is a conditioned action.

You know, in *EXACTLY* the same way you were unable to recognise the sexism you're conditioned with when you claimed to have a completely sexist-free home.

[eFestivals]

whether I have a sexism home or not, is irrelevant. The fact that it's inconceivable to you for anyone to have one, seems odd.

firstly, you'd have to accept a definition for 'sexism' to work your claim from Tony. Care to say what your definition is?

Then you'd have to state that you know of and can recognise all sexism in the world, and have banished it from your family's minds so that you've also banished it from your house.

So yes, it's inconceivable - impossible - for your claim to be right.

Meanwhile, all of that is the squirrel to hide what you were actually challenged on - which you can't seem to address or disprove.

[eFestivals]

by your definition of sexism, is it conceivable for anyone to have a sexist free home?

another squirrel tony? who'd have thought it.

You need to give your own definition of sexism to make your own claim stand up. Can you, or do you only have squirrels that prove that you know you're talking bollocks?

[eFestivals]

errr.. you brought it up Neil

I didn't make the claim that you made for your house.

but while we're here (after you brought it up) I was just curious as to whether you could conceive of anyone living in a sexist free environment (using your definitions) or whether your perception of my inability to do so is because you think I'm such a moron

I think the last bit is beyond dispute, tho the sexism thing is nothing personal to just you.

[eFestivals]

So you think it's an impossibility to have a home devoid of male domination? That seems odd to me

I think it's impossible to have a home devoid of all sexist behaviour (not just from males, btw!), yes.

Why is it odd to recognise we're all conditioned by our environment?

[feral chile]

I think it is really difficult to work out even whether you're being sexist or feminist, half the time, never mind anything else.

I've always been a bit of a tomboy. Is that because as a feminist, I'm refusing to be defined and limited by gender stereotypes, or as a person in a male dominated society, I aspire to male values?

As midnight pointed out earlier, I THINK of myself as a person first, female second, so it FEELS like I'm naturally into my rock music, happen to think in a stereotypically masculine way (value empiricism, logic, rationality etc., don't like mysticism, intuition etc.)and I just so happened to want to be one of the lads, because I couldn't relate to overtly feminine values or pursuits.

But I know, when I've checked whether it's socially acceptable to do something, I tend t be looking at whether it's socially acceptable for men to do it, whether that's to go to pubs, gigs on my own etc., even my dress code at one time.

Now, I don't FEEL male, but I certainly aspire to be in the male 'club'. I tend to choose male friends, though that gets more difficult the older I get.

So - am I really free of gender bias, or even more conditioned by it than most?

While I was googling this kind of stuff, I stumbled upon a far right website, and there were ethnic minorities on there providing suggestions on how to get black people to accept white supremacy. And they were kind of patronisingly accepted as part of the group asthey were accepting their lower status.

it was very uncomfortable reading, and it made me question whether I, also, seek male acceptance, though in a different way from wanting to be a sex object.

Is it feminist or sexist to want genuine male acceptance?

[eFestivals]

Is it feminist or sexist to want genuine male acceptance?

I think the word is 'needy'.

[feral chile]

I think the word is 'needy'.

sod off you bolshy git I'm trying to meet you half way here

(checks my male banter guide to make sure that's a suitable riposte)

you really are an argumentative sod, though. If I'm asserting my independence, I'm in denial of patriarchy, if I'm conceding the possibility of patriarchy, I'm a 'needy' female.

This is what I get for even conceding the possibility of 'patriarchy'.

Edited March 24, 2015 by feral chile

[midnight]

I think it is really difficult to work out even whether you're being sexist or feminist, half the time, never mind anything else.

I've always been a bit of a tomboy. Is that because as a feminist, I'm refusing to be defined and limited by gender stereotypes, or as a person in a male dominated society, I aspire to male values?

As midnight pointed out earlier, I THINK of myself as a person first, female second, so it FEELS like I'm naturally into my rock music, happen to think in a stereotypically masculine way (value empiricism, logic, rationality etc., don't like mysticism, intuition etc.)and I just so happened to want to be one of the lads, because I couldn't relate to overtly feminine values or pursuits.

But I know, when I've checked whether it's socially acceptable to do something, I tend t be looking at whether it's socially acceptable for men to do it, whether that's to go to pubs, gigs on my own etc., even my dress code at one time.

Now, I don't FEEL male, but I certainly aspire to be in the male 'club'. I tend to choose male friends, though that gets more difficult the older I get.

So - am I really free of gender bias, or even more conditioned by it than most?

While I was googling this kind of stuff, I stumbled upon a far right website, and there were ethnic minorities on there providing suggestions on how to get black people to accept white supremacy. And they were kind of patronisingly accepted as part of the group asthey were accepting their lower status.

it was very uncomfortable reading, and it made me question whether I, also, seek male acceptance, though in a different way from wanting to be a sex object.

Is it feminist or sexist to want genuine male acceptance?

Did I point that out? Genuine question, I don't remember doing it.

Btw, I'm into rock music, I never thought of that as a manly thing, it's just a type of music I like (there are others too).

Why do you think you want this male acceptance - and what would genuine male acceptance look like, to you?

[midnight]

'Tit Monday' or whatever it's called, is just like page 3 for me. It's not the most offensive thing in the world, but by accepting it in any way, or joining in, you're be default condoning it, and perpetuating sexism.

slightly aside from that.... under-arm hair? Is that a feminist issue? I remember when it was perfectly natural for girls to have under-arm hair, but now, you'd have to be a pretty brave woman to be seen with it.

I'll have a look at that thread when it pops up again.

As for the hair thing, I call it the stateside-teflon-body-syndrome, and it doesn't stop at armpits these days. Some women do think it is a feminist issue:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/10/stop-stigmatizing-womens-hair/

I tend to lump with my gripes about the beauty industry, although I suspect there's also a bit of an overspill of porn standards at work here. But the really, really creepy thing is that most of the body hair women are encouraged to shave off is something that comes along with puberty and signals maturity, so taking it all off makes the women look more childlike.

[feral chile]

Sorry Feral I didn't even really think about it when I posted in the tit monday thread and I am sure its the same for most posters in there. I always took it as a bit of jokey thread, I don't think any of the male posters on these boards were dead serious about it, just a sort of countdown to warmer weather and happier moods.

As I've said it before earlier in this thread somewhere (I think it was about a similar sort of jokey discussion in a pub and someone asked why a guy didn't stick up for a woman?) that jokey stuff like that is much likely to get a better response and be thought about properly if a woman says "Hey, thats quite offensive" compared to another bloke.

I don't think any of the posters would have ganged up on you about it or felt you didn't have right to voice an opinion about the subject considering its public forum...

Sorry London Tom I didn't see this sooner. I know it's just all good natured. I think that makes it more difficult, I don't want people to feel bad, and bring down the mood, when it's something done in good spirits.

Plus, I have some pagan friends who celebrate the start of spring in much the same way.

[feral chile]

I'll have a look at that thread when it pops up again.

As for the hair thing, I call it the stateside-teflon-body-syndrome, and it doesn't stop at armpits these days. Some women do think it is a feminist issue:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/10/stop-stigmatizing-womens-hair/

I tend to lump with my gripes about the beauty industry, although I suspect there's also a bit of an overspill of porn standards at work here. But the really, really creepy thing is that most of the body hair women are encouraged to shave off is something that comes along with puberty and signals maturity, so taking it all off makes the women look more childlike.

Well the ideal of beauty is based on childlike features, large eyes etc.

[feral chile]

Did I point that out? Genuine question, I don't remember doing it.

Btw, I'm into rock music, I never thought of that as a manly thing, it's just a type of music I like (there are others too).

Why do you think you want this male acceptance - and what would genuine male acceptance look like, to you?

I think I lost my thread. It was a comment you made about androgyny being easier for females because of masculinity being valued more. I always thought I just liked what I liked, and I thought I was refusing to conform to stereotypically feminine behaviour. But now I'm wondering whether I'm conforming to male stereotypes instead.

That's why I try to avoid the patriarchy model - I end up overthinking everything.

And male acceptance would mean being treated exactly like another male.

Edited March 25, 2015 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

sod off you bolshy git I'm trying to meet you half way here

(checks my male banter guide to make sure that's a suitable riposte)

you really are an argumentative sod, though. If I'm asserting my independence, I'm in denial of patriarchy, if I'm conceding the possibility of patriarchy, I'm a 'needy' female.

This is what I get for even conceding the possibility of 'patriarchy'.

my words were a joke in your personal direction.

Yet those words did have a point. People should do things for their own reasons which shouldn't include getting the approval of others as part of that. As soon as you change what you do for them, you're implementing their ideas and not yours.

[eFestivals]

You can recognise that we're all conditioned AND conceive of an ideal

what's that got to do with your ability to recognise everything of that ideal?

You either have the absolute perfection you claimed, or you don't. Care to re-state which one you're going with?

[eFestivals]

In the end, it doesn't matter what I might claim is my situation (and to re-iterate, my claim was that my home isn't male dominated, that's all. Nothing about any perfection, or free of any sexism).

you claimed perfection.

If we can't even imagine what we actually want, then we can't even make the smallest of steps towards anything better than what we have.

not true.

Just because you can't see around the corner doesn't mean that you can't see at all.

[eFestivals]

Nope. That's your interpretation of me saying my home isn't male dominated

your pants are on fire again. We've done this once already, remember?

[feral chile]

my words were a joke in your personal direction.

Yet those words did have a point. People should do things for their own reasons which shouldn't include getting the approval of others as part of that. As soon as you change what you do for them, you're implementing their ideas and not yours.

But this is it - until you put doubt into my head, I DID think I was doing things for my own reasons, and was rather proud of the fact that I wasn't conforming to gender stereotypes.

[feral chile]

my words were a joke in your personal direction.

Yet those words did have a point. People should do things for their own reasons which shouldn't include getting the approval of others as part of that. As soon as you change what you do for them, you're implementing their ideas and not yours.

yes, I know they were, you provocative sod

And also, as you've been arguing - once you start thinking of everything as conditioned by patriarchy, you can't work out what's a genuine feminist action any more.

Which I worry about anyway, though I express it differently - and the Page 3/Tit Monday situation is a prime example.

Am I gender secure if I don't let those things bother me, and just think the men are partaking in relatively harmless banter/immature ogling?

So - is it feminist to not care what the daft half of the opulation are doing, and their obsession with breasts and be mildly patronising about them?

Or is it more feminist to see it as a threat, a sign of oppression, something to feel insecure about?

My personal feeling is that I admire women who don't worry about it, get on with their lives and don't let male attitudes get to them, and I want to be strong like them.

Edited March 25, 2015 by feral chile

[midnight]

I shall have to go without your admiration, then (....crosses one more off the list....).

Won't consider myself weak, though.

[eFestivals]

And also, as you've been arguing - once you start thinking of everything as conditioned by patriarchy, you can't work out what's a genuine feminist action any more.

have I bollocks.

If you make it up for yourself, there's a good chance you'll get it wrong.

[feral chile]

I shall have to go without your admiration, then (....crosses one more off the list....).

Won't consider myself weak, though.

Did you consider yourself weak, or take offence, when someone posted footage of that admirable TV presenter standing her ground over that misogynistic prick?

Or is it Ok for you to admire strong women, but not me?

I give up.

Edited March 26, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

have I bollocks.

If you make it up for yourself, there's a good chance you'll get it wrong.

Feminists are exempt, are they?

I give up with you, too.

Edited March 26, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

have I bollocks.

If you make it up for yourself, there's a good chance you'll get it wrong.

oh cool, so tony CAN work out what's a genuine feminist action then. Even though he's conditioned by patriarchy.

So, if tony says he's tried to be feminist within his household, I'll accept his word.