What women (don't) want.

[eFestivals]

yes, you often accuse people of telling lies, and making stuff up.

and it's easy for you to prove if you haven't made it up.

Instead we get a page of squirrel to hide behind.

All of which I've addressed before and you can't have listened, demonstrating I'd be wasting my time to do it all again.

[feral chile]

and it's easy for you to prove if you haven't made it up.

Instead we get a page of squirrel to hide behind.

All of which I've addressed before and you can't have listened, demonstrating I'd be wasting my time to do it all again.

 

 

Just answer the questions, all on one page, so we have a very clear summary of your opinions.

 

put your money where your mouth is.

 

is the world male defined?

 

should women challenge it?

 

or are you now saying girls/women decide independently what to wear, regardless of patriarchy?

 

Either they're free enough of patriarchy to be responsible for their own decisions, including rule breaking, or they're not.

 

Which is it?

[frostypaw]

Tbh I thought the some people was very general - i really think the problem is exacerbated massively by the floods of one sided discussion that does goes on. It gets people so heated about one side that otherwise quite reasonable folk lose sight of the other side.

I often point people at YouTube - look for videos of kids having minor accidents and look at the different reactions between whether it's a girl or boy. It's all programed so deeply into society I wouldn't know where to start but time is doing good work as gender fluidity increases in youth it can only help open eyes further and further. I envy kids these days the relative equality and freedom they have and suspect by the time they're running the show we'll see some serious differences - but there's a lot of old dogs to fall asleep yet

[eFestivals]

Just answer the questions

Not until you apologise for the bullshit you've posted and promise to not repeat it.

I'm happy to discuss. I'm not happy to be lied about.

Get back to me when you've grown up.

[feral chile]

Not until you apologise for the bullshit you've posted and promise to not repeat it.

I'm happy to discuss. I'm not happy to be lied about.

Get back to me when you've grown up.

 

oh get over yourself.

 

and quit making vague accusations of being misrepresented when I've given you the chance to set the record straight.

 

You demanded repeatedly that I answered a loaded question regarding austerity.

 

I'm not even asking that, I'm just asking you some straight questions, that should be easy enough to provide answers to.

Edited September 4, 2015 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

oh get over yourself.

 

I'm well over myself. It's your idiocy I can't get over.

 

If you want me to play, you have to play fairly. If you want to be a dictator, you're wasting your time with all you post.

 

For all the while you post lies, there's no discussion to be had by your own rules. Fancy that, eh? You've just done what you say can't be done.

Edited September 4, 2015 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

I'm well over myself. It's your idiocy I can't get over.

 

If you want me to play, you have to play fairly. If you want to be a dictator, you're wasting your time with all you post.

 

Another post with absolutely no contribution to the discussion.

[eFestivals]

Another post with absolutely no contribution to the discussion.

 

and you accusing me of saying things i've never remotely said furthers it how?

 

FFS

 

How's your own self-awareness going? You clearly think I'm the one that's been unfair here.

 

It's your bullshit that has ruined all chances of any discussion.

Edited September 4, 2015 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

and you accusing me of saying things i've never remotely said furthers it how?

 

FFS

 

How's your own self-awareness going? You clearly think I'm the one that's been unfair here.

 

It's your bullshit that has ruined all chances of any discussion.

 

well set the record straight then.

[eFestivals]

well set the record straight then.

 

what's the point? I say stuff, and you say I've said something entirely different.

 

Lying about the other person isn't a sign of intelligence, or anything else good or worthwhile in any discussion. It makes the whole thing pointless.

 

More than that, it makes YOU pointless.

[feral chile]

what's the point? I say stuff, and you say I've said something entirely different.

 

Lying about the other person isn't a sign of intelligence, or anything else good or worthwhile in any discussion. It makes the whole thing pointless.

 

More than that, it makes YOU pointless.

 

Yes, I agree, lies ARE pointless.

 

So let's set the record straight then.

[eFestivals]

Yes, I agree, lies ARE pointless.

 

So let's set the record straight then.You

 

You're the one who posted the lies. It's for you to set it straight.

 

It's not like you don't know you posted lies.

[feral chile]

You're the one who posted the lies. It's for you to set it straight.

 

It's not like you don't know you posted lies.

 

You don't seem well. You're being quite vague and seemingly feeling threatened but aren't able to provide specifics..

 

When you're feeling better, maybe we can discuss this properly.

[eFestivals]

You don't seem well. You're being quite vague and seemingly feeling threatened but aren't able to provide specifics..

 

When you're feeling better, maybe we can discuss this properly.

 

Oh dear, you really don't like being called out on your bullshit, do you?

 

Care to show me where I posted:-

So, according to you, women should learn their place, as socially inferior to men.

 

What's that? You can't? Because you made it up and posted lies?

 

Well I never.

Edited September 4, 2015 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

Oh dear, you really don't like being called out on your bullshit, do you?

 

Care to show me where I posted:-

 

What's that? You can't? Because you made it up and posted lies?

 

Well I never.

 

so, should women obey the rules then, even if they think the rules are gender biased? Should they challenge them and provoke a discussion around the issues, as is meant to be happening here?

 

Should the same apply to men, or any other protected group?

 

Does any group have the right to point out perceived unfairness, so that the rules can be scrutinised for unintended effects?

[eFestivals]

Oh dear, you really don't like being called out on your bullshit, do you?

 

Care to show me where I posted:-

 

What's that? You can't? Because you made it up and posted lies?

 

Well I never.

[feral chile]

This article explains what those girls are trying to address:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/school-dress-code_b_2711533.html

 When it comes to girls, skimpy and skin-baring clothes are often the primary issue. Kids know that many words, like "unladylike," are code for "slutty." Other words that are frequently used include "distracting" and "unprofessional." Many teachers worry that girls' skin will "so addle boys' brains that they will be unable to concentrate." Boys, and apparently in Iowa, adult men who can now legally fire "irresistible" women, we are told, simply cannot concentrate in this environment.

So, what exactly is wrong with saying girls are "distracting"? I mean, everyone know this, right?
•Who gets to be distracted? And, whose distraction is central? What is a girl supposed to think in the morning when she wakes up and tries to decide what to wear to school? They aren't idiots. The logical conclusion of the "distracting" issue is, "Will I turn someone on if I wear this?" Now who is doing the sexualizing? My daughters would never have thought these things without the help of their school. The only people these policies worry about distracting are heterosexual boys. When I was a teenager, there was a boy who distracted the hell out of me. It was the way his hair brushed against his neck and an insouciant ease with his large body. I managed just fine academically, and so can straight boys who encounter girls they are attracted to. When have you ever heard someone talk about what is distracting to girls or gay kids? This idea ignores that fact that girls and LBGTQ kids exist as sexual people. But, do you know what is distracting? Trying not to be distracting. This framing of the problem is marginalizing, sexist and heteronormative.

 

• In addition, it implies strongly that girls have responsibility for boys' responses and that boys cannot control themselves. Boys should be insulted. People need to get a super-firm grip on the fact that girls are not sexual thermostats for their male peers. They need to manage themselves and are fully capable of doing so.

 

• Third, if people are concerned that girls consider themselves decorative or that they think that appearing in what can be construed as sexually provocative ways is important, then they should confront the reasons why girls perceive these things to be true by the time they are 10 or 11. The clothes that our culture makes available and fashionable for girls -- the ones tied to being attractive, to glamour, success, money and public female power and glory -- are the same ones that make it possible for most girls and women to access power and resources vicariously in male-dominated culture. THAT is what schools should be concerned with. Blaming girls for making rational choices about what society rewards them for is useless and hypocritical.

​ 

 

.though I suspect it's also to protect teachers.

Edited September 4, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

so, should women obey the rules then, even if they think the rules are gender biased? Should they challenge them and provoke a discussion around the issues, as is meant to be happening here?

 

Should the same apply to men, or any other protected group?

 

Does any group have the right to point out perceived unfairness, so that the rules can be scrutinised for unintended effects?

 

[eFestivals]

You don't seem well. You're being quite vague and seemingly feeling threatened but aren't able to provide specifics..

When you're feeling better, maybe we can discuss this properly.

Oh dear, you really don't like being called out on your bullshit, do you?

Care to show me where I posted:-

So, according to you, women should learn their place, as socially inferior to men.

What's that? You can't? Because you made it up and posted lies?

Well I never.

[feral chile]

Tbh I thought the some people was very general - i really think the problem is exacerbated massively by the floods of one sided discussion that does goes on. It gets people so heated about one side that otherwise quite reasonable folk lose sight of the other side.

I often point people at YouTube - look for videos of kids having minor accidents and look at the different reactions between whether it's a girl or boy. It's all programed so deeply into society I wouldn't know where to start but time is doing good work as gender fluidity increases in youth it can only help open eyes further and further. I envy kids these days the relative equality and freedom they have and suspect by the time they're running the show we'll see some serious differences - but there's a lot of old dogs to fall asleep yet

Hi frostypaw - sorry missed this post earlier.

What side do you mean when you say one sided?

Do you mean the female point of view/feminist perspective, or do you mean something more general?

As in, what happens in debate generally?

I'm interested in this particular issue around dress codes, because if you've been following the feminist arguments in here, how women dress is considered important, and since I feel people have a right to their own choices, I'm interested in the discussion around whether and when each sex should be allowed autonomy over what they wear, and whether in fact they have it when they make a choice (ie is it a conditioned choice).

Now, in each example I've posted, there have been reasons given for imposing a dress code. They're not my reasons. I've also posted feminist objections to some of the reasons. again, they're not my objections, I'm still exploring the issues.

And trying to make up my mind whether my own, self imposed (theoretically) dress code in the context of a formal 'no dress code' environment, is conditioned in the way that I accept, or am fully aware of.

And I'd welcome other people's thoughts around it.

Edited September 4, 2015 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

You don't seem well. You're being quite vague and seemingly feeling threatened but aren't able to provide specifics..

When you're feeling better, maybe we can discuss this properly.

Oh dear, you really don't like being called out on your bullshit, do you?

Care to show me where I posted:-

So, according to you, women should learn their place, as socially inferior to men.

What's that? You can't? Because you made it up and posted lies?

Well I never.

[feral chile]

Dress codes aren't always (and generally aren't) about stopping men getting exciting.  It's generally about what type of culture you want an organisation to have.  Be it a professional on or more casual.  In most offices, men wouldn't be allowed to show their collar bone at all, whereas women sometimes have some leeway.  Similarly men can't show their legs.

 

It's all down to interpretation about what is / isn't profession from the standard business suit (in most offices) through to jeans / tshirt (at say Google).  

 

A ban on a woman wearing a croptop isn't necessarily about her midriff turning on the blokes, it's because it looks too casual for what that company wants to portray.

We were discussing this particular case, and neil was arguing that rules should be obeyed, even if they're stupid. This case, and others like it, are causing feminist objections because feminists believe that women are sexualised in the workplace in a way that men are not. And dress codes are a means of addressing this, in a way that puts the onus on the woman to avoid 'distracting' the male.

The point being, that there is no equivalent rule to prohibit men from 'distracting' women by being too revealing.

I'm not saying that all dress codes do this, I'm just presenting the feminist argument. And arguing that rules around 'sexual distraction' exist in cultures that we don't approve of, so to defend them here might be hypocritical.

personally, I'm not sure what I think, since schools may be genuinely trying to remove the risk of sexualising girls, there's a whole different feminist argument around the sexualisation of children in the media and advertising, so I can see both sides of the argument.

But 'rules is rules is rules' definitely isn't it.

[feral chile]

it's all the men's fault when women cannot stick to the rules...?

 

Dress codes are a common thing in society, for both males and females. While I think dress codes are a ridiculous thing, it's only that person's fault if they step over the line and is pulled-up for it.

 

 

Are men allowed to show their collarbone without fear of sexual harassment, or is there a rule censoring them as well?

Would you like all British women to cover up completely in case they got any males excited?

You do realise that's EXACTLY what you're defending, it's just a matter of degree/where you draw the line?

You do, don't you?

The article I posted gave the school's justification for the dress code as being a response to sexual harassment being caused by what girls wore.

That was the reason they gave for the dress code, not my reason or jump. And it's the same reason given in rape cultures when women are dressed 'inappropriately', or are in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc.

[eFestivals]

Do you think I'm going to let you mask your bullshit, feral?

You don't seem well. You're being quite vague and seemingly feeling threatened but aren't able to provide specifics..

When you're feeling better, maybe we can discuss this properly.

Oh dear, you really don't like being called out on your bullshit, do you?

Care to show me where I posted:-

So, according to you, women should learn their place, as socially inferior to men.

What's that? You can't? Because you made it up and posted lies?

Well I never.

[feral chile]

Do you think I'm going to let you mask your bullshit, feral?

Oh dear, you really don't like being called out on your bullshit, do you?

Care to show me where I posted:-

What's that? You can't? Because you made it up and posted lies?

Well I never.

You think women should abide by (according to them) rules that are there for the benefit of males. Rules they're challenging as patriarchal.

You repeatedly said they should abide by the rules, and you've repeatedly said previously that societal rules are male defined, and need to be recognised and challenged.

And when I find an example in which you might be right, and I might be wrong, you argue with me about it.

I'm surprised by your inconsistency.