What women (don't) want.

[eFestivals]

You think women should abide by (according to them) rules that are there for the benefit of males.

Do I really?

Then you'll be able to show me where I said it.

More bullshit.

 

Rules they're challenging as patriarchal.

the rule was only challenged after someone had failed to meet it and had their knuckles slapped because of it, and not because they have a principled objection to it.

 

You repeatedly said they should abide by the rules,

Then you'll be able to show me where I said it.

More bullshit.

 

And when I find an example in which you might be right, and I might be wrong, you argue with me about it.

No, I made a statement about what exactly had happened.

 

I'm surprised by your inconsistency.

PMSL.

I'm not surprised by your inability to read, your inability to understand, and your determined bullshitting stupidity. It's not like these traits of yours are new to me.

But I've had enough of them, and you're getting called out on them until your brain works enough to withdraw them and start acting like you understand even the things you post yourself.

Edited September 4, 2015 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

it's all the men's fault when women cannot stick to the rules...?

 

Dress codes are a common thing in society, for both males and females. While I think dress codes are a ridiculous thing, it's only that person's fault if they step over the line and is pulled-up for it.

 

 

but that's not all dress codes.

 

What I said applies to all dress codes, no matter what stupid - or more sensible - reasons might have had them put in place.

 

 

I'm pointing out that no matter why those rules exist, the person in that article had failed to abide by them.

 

As my Gran used to say, two wrongs don't make a right.

Edited September 4, 2015 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

Non e of those things say what you've claimed I've said.

All you've done there feral is proven your inability to understand clear words used correctly.

Which gets to mean you're winding yourself up with your own stupidity or ignorance.

Don't blame me for your own stupidity or ignorance.

[feral chile]

I'm having lots of problems quoting posts today, so I'll have to summarise and hope you agree, with my summary.

 

You say this (these - lots of American girls - seems to be a major issue over there) girl broke the rules so it's her problem, no matter what reasons there are for the rules.

 

You applauded frostypaw giving the alernative male view that dress codes don't always benenfit men.

 

Now - previously - when I've also said society doesn't always benefit men, which is why I don't like using patriarchy as an observational term, and prefer diversity terminology - you've dismissed similar examples as 'squirrels' or my stupidity in not recognising how pervasive patriarchy is.

 

Now, when I find an example that seems to be showing patriarchy, you're dismissing it as the girls' faults for not obeying the rules - NO MATTER WHERE THOSE RULES COME FROM>

 

Now, if patriarchy exist, you've already said evdrything's male defined, so therefore so are the dress code rules.

 

You now seem to be saying the girls should just accept them ie. accept patriarchy. Patriarchy being an observation of male dominated society.

 

Or that patriarchy isn't involved, everything isn't male defined.

 

So - were you right before or are you right now?

 

I'm also pretty sure that if I had made the exact same points as frostypaw, you'd have laughed your socks off at my 'stupidity', because you'd have interpreted them differently.

 

which is ironic, because I am, in fact, in almost total agreement with them. It's NOT one-sided, any gender bias affects both sexes detrimentally in some ways, and benefits in others.

Edited September 4, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/school-dress-codes-the-fu_b_5773284.html

 

This details the main issues around this controversy

​

 

it's basically saying that girls are being taught that they are a sexual distraction and are to blame for sexual interest. and schools are being accused of objectinfying girls and teaching them that boys' concerns are of central importance.

Edited September 4, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

ha that's so funny, I just tried to quote parts of that article, and got an error message saying 'this site says, error, invalid argument'

 

[feral chile]

​If you are inclined to think this is just about girls who want to be sexy then you are willfully not interested in understanding what is going on. Make no mistake, when school administrators patrol hallways checking out the legs, arms, shoulders and skin of 10- and 11-year-old girls, and micromanaging their appearance, they are objectifying them and encouraging them to self-objectify in the same way that popular media or purity cultures do.

[feral chile]

Do women not refer to themselves dressed up as sexy? And what place does that have in an office?

It's not all a one way street here, and there's more than one thing in play.

 

(there are of course some deliberately-discriminatory rules in some places, but I'm talking about the more normal social compromises that tend to fall in a discriminatory way)

If I was wanting to be flippant I might say that men might only stand a chance of complying with women's wishes on these sorts of things once women had made up their collective mind and stuck to it.

Or I could point out that there's other social rules which discriminate unfairly against men to the benefit of women where men are not allowed to exploit their natural advantages over the opposite gender, too.

 

But mostly I'd say it's probably an irresolvable conflict because of the biological factors, and there will never be a singularly satisfactory answer because different people have different ideas.

 

That doesn't mean there's not some nutty rules to be brought down, btw.

'If you are inclined to think this is just about girls who want to be sexy then you are willfully not interested in understanding what is going on. Make no mistake, when school administrators patrol hallways checking out the legs, arms, shoulders and skin of 10- and 11-year-old girls, and micromanaging their appearance, they are objectifying them and encouraging them to self-objectify in the same way that popular media or purity cultures do.

Way before girls begin to consider being sexy school dress and uniform codes and their enforcement have quietly introduced ideas fundamental to gender-based discrimination and the reinforcement of hetero-patriarchal norms. Dress codes have less to do with sexy than with social order. They are like sumptuary laws, frequently, unconsciously or not, designed to protect a sexist, frequently racist and homophobic status quo and kids know it'.

Edited September 4, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

The above, supports your previous argument regarding patriarchy, yes?

and works against my previous stance?

so why aren't you agreeing with it? have you changed your mind?

Or do you now think patriarchy is more complicated, and it's difficult to work out what perpetuates it and works against it? You are now the one pitting yourself against the feminist view, not me (though I was only arguing for more than one perspective).

and frosty was agreeing with my previous points that men don't have it all their own way, which supports my previous arguments, and that you previously suggested was irrelevant, even when I suggested a patriarchal culture had a hierarchy that could also lead to men being victimised, raped even in extreme circumstances. (you seemed to think that was funny, was that because you assumed I meant by women and not by men?).

so again, have you now changed your mind?

[frostypaw]

We were discussing this particular case, and neil was arguing that rules should be obeyed, even if they're stupid. This case, and others like it, are causing feminist objections because feminists believe that women are sexualised in the workplace in a way that men are not. And dress codes are a means of addressing this, in a way that puts the onus on the woman to avoid 'distracting' the male.

The point being, that there is no equivalent rule to prohibit men from 'distracting' women by being too revealing.

I'm gonna quote this instead of replying directly to your response to me as it makes it easier.

They're wrong. This isn't true. See the example I gave. The reason there are more rules for women is because men don't come in wearing tight revealing leggings and a crop top with full make up and jewellery blasting "Looooook at me!" at volume level 11 all day and expect that to be fine.

Those extreme few who shove the limits force rules on everyone. Just like the guy in our office who started turning up in lycra shorts and vest. That forced management's hand and they had to make rules - cue meetings and arguments over what sorts of shorts were ok etc - all the same stuff played out but in reverse. Not because of any sexism or prejudices just because that was the first time a bloke had pushed it in the 15 years of the company existing.

It's not "everyone is against women" or "all rules are for women" it's "there are lots of rules for women because they push the boundaries out far enough to find the limits"

and those limits are often requested and set by other women - the assumption this is all something laid down by men is farcical.

This is what I mean by one-sided - there are literally FLOODS of arguments and evidence against this being entirely one-sided that it appears have never been mentioned to you. How can you take a reasonable position on half the evidence?

read your posts back.... there some truly bonkers things you're suggesting about school dress codes - do you know any children? The whole problem is kids don't understand sexy they're just dressing up as they see their role models and what they see as the cool people do and they might call it sexy whatever but it's an unknown game to them, competed over with as much depth, feeling and meaning as who's got the most fancy tennis racket or trainers. The uniform codes are there to level that playing field so they have a chance to learn what's important before which boy spends the most time down the gym or which girl looks most like Posh Spice or can grow the longest hair starts to seem like what life's all about - and so the kids who don't join in the arms-race don't end up ruined by it nonetheless.

You remember being a kid? Wanting to be like the cool kids? How many of them turned out to have got it right.... uniform codes and these rules are not there to sexualise or objectify or diminish anyone - what you wear and how you look MEANS NOTHING - and learning that would do the world a fucking vast amount of good, and probably end a lot of this particular argument over the shape of pieces of cotton on a human being.

[Zoo Music Girl]

Just wanted to say I've really enjoyed reading this debate from start to finish over the past couple of weeks. Some really interesting points of view and issues raised that have made me think while I don't maybe have the stamina or time to engage directly. At least it was interesting when it didn't descend to childish name calling and one upmanship!

Anyway feral I agree with a lot of what you say and your questioning attitude towards things. Just thought that might be helpful to put out there!

[Zoo Music Girl]

Oh and a shout out for midnight too. Really interesting posts.

[frostypaw]

if what you wear means nothing, why do schools put so much effort into enforcing uniform/dress codes?

 

I agree, ultimately what you wear means nothing. Dress codes do everything to counter that concept. If a woman shows her collarbone (shock horror!), and a guy can't control his reactions to it, shouldn't it be the men who should learn how to deal with it, rather than skewing the rules to effectively let the men behave the way they want to, and try to control what the women wear

*sigh*

Yes in a doggedly uninspired way you're right in real biological terms what you wear and how you look means a lot - choosing a partner and continuing the species is a deep wired fundamental drive.

HOWEVER this is at school, or at work - at this point It Does Not Matter and it should not matter - it's embarrassing we live in a world where a lesser qualified sexily dressed girl can land a job a presentable better skilled woman can't because of their appearance alone - where a pretty girl is assumed to be a no brainer and incapable of being a scientist - where the girls who aren't tall and big breasted are made to feel lesser beings despite getting top grades - that's deeply unfair and at that point no matter how basic a set of animal urges we are programmed with it's a time to put that to one side!

The idea that it's because "a guy can't control his reactions to it" it patently ridiculous shite brought over from the rape-culture hyenas looking at things in the most skewed ways humanly possible. These situations all obviously need a line being drawn as they are so easy to take to extremis when it becomes nigh-on sexual harassment and a sexualised workplace is no good for anyone.

Considering you're meant to be being rated on the quality of your work and your abilities alone why exactly are these people bothered so much about what they wear to work?

Interesting other weird case of sexualisation - we employed a girl at the last place, a boys-only landscaping company..... and it was a car crash. She refused to wear the uniform (uv-proof work shirts, nothing odd) and would strip down to a little skintight halter at every chance, wouldn't touch the work anti-wear trousers had to wear skintight nice jeans and would work til just sweaty then go sit near the guys and lounge to cool down. Work rate at sites she was on would slow right down and only a couple of seniors complained. Managers tried to politely put a barrier on that behaviour by trying to enforce the existing uniform rules and got met by all the argument I see here at 10 on the Beaufort scale so they caved in, and after having to drive an extra hour and a half so she could chase dick I finally just said work needed to come before hunting your man and it was thermonuclear war. (she really was after a guy called richard i'm not just being flippant)

I'm not saying it's nothing to do with men, I'm not saying it's all to do with women - but when you find a place with a strict uniform code it's best not to immediately jump to the conclusion it's because men are all basically rapists. The next girl they tried flirting with and she said she'd rip their f*cking balls off and shove them down their throats if they touched her - so I liked her

Btw men can wear what they want I can introduce you to guys from age 19-? who'd violently disagree. You just don't have the imagination for it, which isn't your fault men are programmed into a limited range - look at the comparative sizes of clothing market.

If men and boys have such freedom why the hell is this a story that touched a lot of people's hearts, and this one that first pic's a cracker, as natural as anything, or this one or more if I could be bothered to keep searching and that's just the cute stories that make the news - I suspect there are thousands and just the tip of the iceberg of the freedom in clothing men really want.

Edited September 4, 2015 by frostypaw

[feral chile]

Just wanted to say I've really enjoyed reading this debate from start to finish over the past couple of weeks. Some really interesting points of view and issues raised that have made me think while I don't maybe have the stamina or time to engage directly. At least it was interesting when it didn't descend to childish name calling and one upmanship!

Anyway feral I agree with a lot of what you say and your questioning attitude towards things. Just thought that might be helpful to put out there!

 

 

Oh and a shout out for midnight too. Really interesting posts.

Hi, thanks, Zoo Music Girl, and I agree, I've been interested to hear some different perspectives. I've learnt a lot, and been given lots to think about.

[feral chile]

*sigh*

Yes in a doggedly uninspired way you're right in real biological terms what you wear and how you look means a lot - choosing a partner and continuing the species is a deep wired fundamental drive.

HOWEVER this is at school, or at work - at this point It Does Not Matter and it should not matter - it's embarrassing we live in a world where a lesser qualified sexily dressed girl can land a job a presentable better skilled woman can't because of their appearance alone - where a pretty girl is assumed to be a no brainer and incapable of being a scientist - where the girls who aren't tall and big breasted are made to feel lesser beings despite getting top grades - that's deeply unfair and at that point no matter how basic a set of animal urges we are programmed with it's a time to put that to one side!

The idea that it's because "a guy can't control his reactions to it" it patently ridiculous shite brought over from the rape-culture hyenas looking at things in the most skewed ways humanly possible. These situations all obviously need a line being drawn as they are so easy to take to extremis when it becomes nigh-on sexual harassment and a sexualised workplace is no good for anyone.

Considering you're meant to be being rated on the quality of your work and your abilities alone why exactly are these people bothered so much about what they wear to work?

Interesting other weird case of sexualisation - we employed a girl at the last place, a boys-only landscaping company..... and it was a car crash. She refused to wear the uniform (uv-proof work shirts, nothing odd) and would strip down to a little skintight halter at every chance, wouldn't touch the work anti-wear trousers had to wear skintight nice jeans and would work til just sweaty then go sit near the guys and lounge to cool down. Work rate at sites she was on would slow right down and only a couple of seniors complained. Managers tried to politely put a barrier on that behaviour by trying to enforce the existing uniform rules and got met by all the argument I see here at 10 on the Beaufort scale so they caved in, and after having to drive an extra hour and a half so she could chase dick I finally just said work needed to come before hunting your man and it was thermonuclear war. (she really was after a guy called richard i'm not just being flippant)

I'm not saying it's nothing to do with men, I'm not saying it's all to do with women - but when you find a place with a strict uniform code it's best not to immediately jump to the conclusion it's because men are all basically rapists. The next girl they tried flirting with and she said she'd rip their f*cking balls off and shove them down their throats if they touched her - so I liked her

Btw men can wear what they want I can introduce you to guys from age 19-? who'd violently disagree. You just don't have the imagination for it, which isn't your fault men are programmed into a limited range - look at the comparative sizes of clothing market.

If men and boys have such freedom why the hell is this a story that touched a lot of people's hearts, and this one that first pic's a cracker, as natural as anything, or this one or more if I could be bothered to keep searching and that's just the cute stories that make the news - I suspect there are thousands and just the tip of the iceberg of the freedom in clothing men really want.

That last paragraph reminded me of something I saw on social media, about a man celebrating (by posting a video of it with his kids) the fact that his son chose a doll as an exchange gift.

And while I'm glad that he wanted to support his son, I couldn't help thinking that if it was really OK, there would be no need for a fuss, so I wasn't sure what message was really being delivered. Definitely that his choice is a big deal, even if a positive one. When it really shouldn't draw any attention at all.

it's the message children pick up that concerns me. Way back when all this started, I was sure that the worst sexism was over, that we lived in a different era from y own childhood, and then I was shocked to learn of experiences that were not dissimilar.

So I'm taking these girls at their word.

And why don't women's clothes have pockets, and why is it impossible to buy shoes that are smart AND comfortable?

Edited September 4, 2015 by feral chile

[frostypaw]

And why don't women's clothes have pockets, and why is it impossible to buy shoes that are smart AND comfortable?

Lesbians.

[frostypaw]

It's not about freedom, that they can't wear what they like. Men are as hamstrung by societies prejudices as anyone. The difference is, most of the time, it suits them.

Apologies if I took you wrong just didn't sound like agreeing.

I don't know if it does, there's a lot of damaged and hurt people out there. Wild generalisations ahead warning: talking about numbers across a population though so it's hard not to.

There's a lot to live up to, false ideals. Is kinda why I point out the videos with parents reactions to kids being hurt - right from being tiny we expect boys to MTFU and crack on. Be the man, take the stress and strain and not show it. I'm not sure that works out for everyone, not sure it sets a healthy environment up - not good herd behaviour. We're all only human and the only ideal we should live up to being true to ourselves (*vom*) - including admitting when we shouldn't be doing it alone. Quite aptly I think that probably is something women do want in men

[frostypaw]

Making blanket rules (clothes-wise) to curb people's behaviour, either in themselves or others, just seems a lazy unimaginative option to me

look reply in one wodge or we end up playing message-leapfrog and it gets very confusing.

The rule was pre-existing - we work in people's homes and gardens and maintaining a professional appearance very important. Obviously it's not the only thing that was done - supers were spoken to and told to ensure she worked continually at a decent pace. My point in mentioning it is her reaction to being asked to behave in an equal fashion.

[feral chile]

Apologies if I took you wrong just didn't sound like agreeing.

I don't know if it does, there's a lot of damaged and hurt people out there. Wild generalisations ahead warning: talking about numbers across a population though so it's hard not to.

There's a lot to live up to, false ideals. Is kinda why I point out the videos with parents reactions to kids being hurt - right from being tiny we expect boys to MTFU and crack on. Be the man, take the stress and strain and not show it. I'm not sure that works out for everyone, not sure it sets a healthy environment up - not good herd behaviour. We're all only human and the only ideal we should live up to being true to ourselves (*vom*) - including admitting when we shouldn't be doing it alone. Quite aptly I think that probably is something women do want in men

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Whether you want to say that patriarchy causes this, certainly the

notion that men are the stronger sex causes so much damage, to the men themselves, and to society. Men are not socialised to express emotions, and are still expected to conform to 'masculine' norms.

I agree with you completely that it's much easier for a woman to display stereotypically masculine behaviour, wear jeans etc., without incurring social censure. There's not total freedom, we still have double standards around gender labels - bitching versus taking the piss, assertive versus bossy etc. But I think men showing a sensitive side come in for major policing.

I think that's partly why men are more at risk of suicide, because they have fewer support options, and less opportunity to seek them out, because of the stigma surrounding men showing perceived 'weakness'.

[feral chile]

I found that video I was talking about earlier, about the father supporting his son's choices of toy - I'd be interested in people's thoughts.

edit:

also, in the face of this:

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-09-04/top-scientist-calls-on-girls-to-ditch-dolls-for-creative-toys-like-lego-and-meccano/

Edited September 5, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

I liked this article about toxic masculinity, and the difference between that and silencing tactics - it's why I prefer the term gender bias, as it includes both sexes in the challenge to patriarchal concepts.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

[frostypaw]

I think that's partly why men are more at risk of suicide, because they have fewer support options, and less opportunity to seek them out, because of the stigma surrounding men showing perceived 'weakness'.

*nods sadly*

I think that video's great - the kid's face is an absolute picture when he pulls the doll out. Yeah it shouldn't be a big deal, but the fact remains It Is. 

 

It's hard sometimes... but not really. It's a peace of piss if it's what you really want, and your partner, kids, friends, family, or whoever, understands that.

This is fine saying it from a nice safe bubble of a calm life and household - but the same applies. Yes idealistically you're right

In practise it's still not like that - I think I'd still say for the majority of the population life is broad brushstrokes of boy blue and girl pink. Sure in well off circles and some metropolitan areas all is now basically cool but you veer far from that and you're straight back into territory where as a bloke comforting your mate who's upset you've a good chance of a passer by yelling "FAG!" and for fuck's sake don't hold hands. And if you're a woman you'd better dress to impress or get assumed a lesbian.

There's a HUGE distance still to cover, the risk is that those who are proactive and bothered surround themselves with enough change to not see beyond the pool of light. Inside there I think we've got pretty close to equality - you go into the design circles or IT/sciences and other progressive fields and the discrimination/presumption level is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay down - but outside it's like day/night as the masees are run round and around a hamsterwheel of simple-to-understand 2d characters and gender roles and heros. Sells better.

[frostypaw]

I liked this article about toxic masculinity, and the difference between that and silencing tactics - it's why I prefer the term gender bias, as it includes both sexes in the challenge to patriarchal concepts.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

The moment it's called "feminism wiki" rather than "equality wiki" it's onto a loser tbh.

I like male protagonist bingo though, been playing that for years

[feral chile]

*nods sadly*

I think that video's great - the kid's face is an absolute picture when he pulls the doll out. Yeah it shouldn't be a big deal, but the fact remains It Is. 

 

This is fine saying it from a nice safe bubble of a calm life and household - but the same applies. Yes idealistically you're right

In practise it's still not like that - I think I'd still say for the majority of the population life is broad brushstrokes of boy blue and girl pink. Sure in well off circles and some metropolitan areas all is now basically cool but you veer far from that and you're straight back into territory where as a bloke comforting your mate who's upset you've a good chance of a passer by yelling "FAG!" and for fuck's sake don't hold hands. And if you're a woman you'd better dress to impress or get assumed a lesbian.

There's a HUGE distance still to cover, the risk is that those who are proactive and bothered surround themselves with enough change to not see beyond the pool of light. Inside there I think we've got pretty close to equality - you go into the design circles or IT/sciences and other progressive fields and the discrimination/presumption level is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay down - but outside it's like day/night as the masees are run round and around a hamsterwheel of simple-to-understand 2d characters and gender roles and heros. Sells better.

yes, this is something I've come to realise - I was massively into equality in my 20's, and because I've sought this for myself and my family, I've complacently believed that society itself has changed. Plus, my age insulates me from some of it.

This discussion has given me pause to reconsider.

I still agree with you that I'd prefer to call it equality and diversity, though, because it's more inclusive, and, I believe, allows for discussion of the downside of 'patriarchy' for all of us, men and women alike.

Particularly with the added complications of sexual orientation and gender identity, and how that interacts with 'patriarchy' or gender stereotyping..

Edited September 5, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

my life, hasn't exactly been a safe bubble of calm....

 

Yes, there is still a long way to go. The only way it will change is if individuals change. Challenge the stereotypes.

yep agreed.

it's incredible to think we're still having the same debates we've been having for at least 40 years, probably a lot longer.

And that we're still making such crude dichotomous clsssifications, when people are so diverse.