What women (don't) want.

[russycarps]

Presumably everyone has heard about this barrister getting sent an inappropriate comment on linkedin.

 

While I admire her spunk, I wonder if publicly naming and shaming this fellow was a bit of a heavy handed response. I think a cutting, but private, reply might have been the best course of action.

 

Unfortunately this article highlights how she might have made a bit of an error of judgement if she values her career. Law is one of the most sexist professions of them all, she cannot possibly hope to win a one-woman crusade here.

 

Though it should be noted that Franklin Sinclair is an odious turd and pretty much a joke figure, what he is saying with resonate throughout the profession.

 

In short, I suspect she's fucked.

 

http://www.legalcheek.com/2015/09/boss-of-top-legal-aid-firm-vows-to-never-instruct-linkedin-message-barrister-charlotte-proudman-again/

[russycarps]

if she's fucked (to coin a phrase) because of this, then doesn't it just highlight how men get away with this sort of shit?

 

"Always interested to understant <sic> people's skills and how we might work together"... yea, right!

 

 

Was it sexist though?

 

You get a different calibre of comments on that website though, you wouldnt see this on the daily mail...

 

"Sexism is a very important issue. Because of that the definition of sexism is a very important definition. That is why, as a society, we ask parliament to define the meaning and we ask the judiciary to define it in context.

 

This act was not sexist by any such definition. It is very important that we do not let random people re-define important legal terms.

 

We do not, yet, as a society regulate courtship. Save that some individual companies have interpreted their risk of disciplinary action at an employment tribunal to mean that they chose to regulate courtship within that company’s workspace. That is their choice, in those circumstances the individuals concerned consent through their employment contracts.

 

It is not for any random person to decide that a country now regulates courtship in a wider context. It is not for any random person to decide that the business linked in now regulates courtship via its message system (that is a decision for linked in). It is not for any random person to decide that the punishment for contravening a rule regulating courtship should be public humiliation through the press.

 

If we, as a society, wish to regulate courtship on a broader scale then let us debate it in parliament and make clear laws which can be followed and proportionate punishments for breach. Although I would not regulate courtship given the choice – even though I too have had people I did not find attractive make a pass at me.

 

But the impact of this rather mean outburst are far wider than Ms Proudman or her victim. Lots of young women, at impressionable ages, will now believe that the law is sexist. Why? Because a barrister told her so. That will be extremely de-motivating. It will require a lot of leg work by charities and individuals to put right that de-motivating impression. It is a consequence no one seems to acknowledge; but I will be extremely upset and the Bar will be poorer if a single talented young woman is put off joining because of this event.

 

I think the wrong of Ms Proudman was in choosing to hurt someone merely because she and that person had a difference of opinion. I differ in my opinion with Ms Proudman. However I do not wish for her to suffer merely because we disagree. I hope we as a society can start to accept that the desire to hurt people who disagree with you, while natural, is nevertheless an impulse to be avoided. Disagreeing is a normal part of healthy adult life. For that reason I don’t like or approve of any threat to her practice and I am sorry that this issue has now arisen."

Edited September 10, 2015 by russycarps

[feral chile]

I never got round to replying to this...

 

Everything the dad says in the video, screams out loud to his son (and everyone else), that what he did was odd. Wouldn't it better to treat it as a normal choice? Otherwise, in an oddly admiring way, he's just compounding the issue.., no?

I'm really glad someone else feels the same way, he's been applauded for this, and while I agree with his sentiment, I'm saddened that it DOESN'T go without saying.

But maybe that's society's problem rather than his.

[frostypaw]

I'm really glad someone else feels the same way, he's been applauded for this, and while I agree with his sentiment, I'm saddened that it DOESN'T go without saying.

But maybe that's society's problem rather than his.

Exactly.

Don't let's put the cart in front of the horse here - the fact is what the kid has done IS unusual and WOULD usually not get support so the fact that it is makes it worth comment, despite how it shouldn't be seen as unusual and odd many dads would not act this way. It's a great thing that a supporting dad like this is being seen as someone to aspire to

There's a lad I swear is going to run foul of this I've worked with - teams up with the girls in class, likes pretty things, picks pinks half the time - aaaaaand army dad. Should be interesting. Tough little chap too, it'll be a confusing one for the parents if they're not as with-it as that dad

Edited September 10, 2015 by frostypaw

[feral chile]

Exactly.

Don't let's put the cart in front of the horse here - the fact is what the kid has done IS unusual and WOULD usually not get support so the fact that it is makes it worth comment, despite how it shouldn't be seen as unusual and odd many dads would not act this way. It's a great thing that a supporting dad like this is being seen as someone to aspire to

There's a lad I swear is going to run foul of this I've worked with - teams up with the girls in class, likes pretty things, picks pinks half the time - aaaaaand army dad. Should be interesting. Tough little chap too, it'll be a confusing one for the parents if they're not as with-it as that dad

I'm getting disheartened that thngs are s slow to change.

my son had a doll 30 odd years ago, and I don't think I made a big deal of it, but he used to pretend it was his sister's if hehad friends over.

I don't think we'd have been supported if I had publicised it, so maybe there's been some progress, at least.

[feral chile]

if he wanted to make a point of it, he shouldn't have done it in front of his kid at the very least. He's saying, to his kid, you're weird, or different, because you like dolls, but I'm still proud of you. Trying to explain to his kids about their (choice of) sexuality... how old are they? It's fucked up.

It's great that he's sort of open minded. But by making a medium sized deal of it, he's ... I don't know... is he showing off? And then putting it on the internet...? bloody 'ell

yeah that's the bit I uncomfortable with, it's great that he's not penalising his child, I'm not sure about publicising it as if it's unusual - what message that's giving the child.

if he was making a public fuss after his son got slammed for this, or because other people drew attention to it, that'd be completely different. Because then someone else would have made his son feel different.

Though my son knew perfectly well that his choice of toy wasn't socially acceptable, anyway. So keeping it hidden isn't any better - what IS the right reaction?

the intentions were good, anyway, it's better than the opposite.

[bunique]

Daily Mail using the word "feminazi" on tomorrow's front page. What insufferable twats.

[frostypaw]

if he wanted to make a point of it, he shouldn't have done it in front of his kid at the very least. He's saying, to his kid, you're weird, or different, because you like dolls, but I'm still proud of you. Trying to explain to his kids about their (choice of) sexuality... how old are they? It's fucked up.

It's great that he's sort of open minded. But by making a medium sized deal of it, he's ... I don't know... is he showing off? And then putting it on the internet...? bloody 'ell

So wouldn't you have thought it wise he prepared him that some other kids might take the piss?

I think you're a bit idealistic on this. You're right about how it should be but people are c**ts, not all, but enough to sour the milk if you're on the receiving end. Only fair to prepare a kid for real life, not the dream

[russycarps]

Daily Mail using the word "feminazi" on tomorrow's front page. What insufferable twats.

That lawyer she outed probably has contacts at the rag. The old boys network stretches far and wide

[feral chile]

That lawyer she outed probably has contacts at the rag. The old boys network stretches far and wide

I understand her frustration, she went about dealing with it in completely the wrong way though, way too confrontational.

All she's done is got men defensive, his comment was careful and ambiguous enough to be backed away from if push came to shove, and that's exactly what's happened.

Plus, she mentioned his age, so he could have her for being ageist.

Edited September 11, 2015 by feral chile

[gary1979666]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3229951/Ooh-la-la-hot-stuff-s-prim-barrister-centre-sexism-storm-said-men-ogled-web.html

 

She's coming unstuck a bit now!

[feral chile]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3229951/Ooh-la-la-hot-stuff-s-prim-barrister-centre-sexism-storm-said-men-ogled-web.html

 

She's coming unstuck a bit now!

From quotes of her there:

'Equalists ignore the gendered nature of the oppression of women'.

Could someone explain and expand on this for me please?

[russycarps]

From quotes of her there:

'Equalists ignore the gendered nature of the oppression of women'.

Could someone explain and expand on this for me please?

 

 

 

I'm sure charlotte can....but it'll cost you £250 an hour!

[feral chile]

Here we go again:

http://metro.co.uk/2015/09/11/year-10-student-told-her-red-hair-does-not-follow-school-rules-5387397/?ito=facebook

[bunique]

I don't see that as a feminist issue. Boys get sent home all the time for hair issues.

[feral chile]

I don't see that as a feminist issue. Boys get sent home all the time for hair issues.

Not enough information - they do reference uniform rules to avoid 'distracting teachers' which is at least honest.

Not being a teacher, I'm not sure how much of an issue this is, and if the reality is that more male teachers are at risk of being 'distracted' by females, how sexist that is, or whether it's a realistic safety precaution.

The photos that were used showed her looking like a young girl with natural hair, and an attractive young woman with her coloured hair, so the journalist is implying that it's to do with female sexuality, (or male sexuality/'distraction' depending on your viewpoint).

But yes, tony, that does seem a bit extreme, it does enhance her appearance, I suspect that might be the real issue for whatever reasons, but may be led to this by the journalistic tactics used - I wonder how older teachers feel if they apply the same standards to the grey hair they'd like to cover?

Edited September 12, 2015 by feral chile

[frostypaw]

Here we go again:

http://metro.co.uk/2015/09/11/year-10-student-told-her-red-hair-does-not-follow-school-rules-5387397/?ito=facebook

How so. If you can demonstrate that same school allows boys to dye their hair then fine, otherwise you and they are making a fuss over nothing. It's not a female right to break rules, it's not okay to shout discrimination every time you can't get what you want - it's what makes the serious cases look laughable

[frostypaw]

I think the whole idea of uniforms, at all, is daft. I've yet to hear one good point 'for' them. As soon as you have a set of rules, they're going to be broken either deliberately or otherwise. Some rules are just not needed.

The private school I work at has kids from a range of backgrounds from local farmers to celeb kids. When they start competing over who can have the most expensive shit, who can have a signed football etc etc can you imagine how out of hand that gets, and then how it makes the poorer kids feel?

Think about it man. They're kids - they don't understand that the attractiveness arms-race that leads to programs like Snog, Marry, Avoid? existing is a distraction from the study they need at that age. Give them a chance

[feral chile]

The private school I work at has kids from a range of backgrounds from local farmers to celeb kids. When they start competing over who can have the most expensive shit, who can have a signed football etc etc can you imagine how out of hand that gets, and then how it makes the poorer kids feel?

Think about it man. They're kids - they don't understand that the attractiveness arms-race that leads to programs like Snog, Marry, Avoid? existing is a distraction from the study they need at that age. Give them a chance

yeah, I have mixed feelings about uniform, based on this argument.

But hair colour/dye? I can't find enough information as to why the school thinks this is an issue, and what rule she's broken, apart from having 'inappropriately coloured hair'.

reminded me of this though -

The Colour of His Hair

Oh who is that young sinner with the handcuffs on his wrists?

And what has he been after, that they groan and shake their fists?

And wherefore is he wearing such a conscience-stricken air?

Oh they’re taking him to prison for the colour of his hair.

‘Tis a shame to human nature, such a head of hair as his;

In the good old time ’twas hanging for the colour that it is;

Though hanging isn’t bad enough and flaying would be fair

For the nameless and abominable colour of his hair.

Oh a deal of pains he’s taken and a pretty price he’s paid

To hide his poll or dye it of a mentionable shade;

But they’ve pulled the beggar’s hat off for the world to see and stare,

And they’re haling him to justice for the colour of his hair.

Now ’tis oakum for his fingers and the treadmill for his feet,

And the quarry-gang on Portland in the cold and in the heat,

And between his spells of labour in the time he has to spare

He can curse the God that made him for the colour of his hair.

A. E. Housman (1859 – 1936)

[feral chile]

How so. If you can demonstrate that same school allows boys to dye their hair then fine, otherwise you and they are making a fuss over nothing. It's not a female right to break rules, it's not okay to shout discrimination every time you can't get what you want - it's what makes the serious cases look laughable

well not over nothing. It seems like a pretty arbitrary rule - 'in-your face'? But without a copy of the school rules or an explanation from the school head, it's difficult to know what's behind it.

Edited September 12, 2015 by feral chile

[bunique]

The usual argument for uniform is that giving pupils something relatively small to kick back against (top buttons being undone, not wearing a tie) distracts them from breaking the bigger rules

[zero000]

The "slippery slope" argument then.

[bunique]

It's a pick your battles thing I guess

[bunique]

I honestly think battles over uniform are the least of our worries. Low level disruption is a much bigger factor in terms of preventing learning and driving teachers out of the classroom.

[feral chile]

So it's a conditioning effect?

I have to say that's not an argument I've heard for uniforms before.

The time and effort put into making kids follow the rule and punishing them for it is just insane.

What other successful European countries have uniforms?

well at our grammar school they were really petty, you had to wear your beret/cap, and it had to be on straight, and you weren't allowed to do anything that brought the school into disrepute, which included things like playing touch on the local square in school uniform.

we were given the class equality argument, and also the representing school one. I'm still very aware of representing my social group as far as me behaviour's concerned, now.

And from observation, I agree that flouting school rules distracted us from bigger acts of rebellion.

But also, you might be interesteed in the comments under this version of the story:

http://www.bournelocal.co.uk/news/local/pupil-disciplined-for-her-red-hair-1-6951388

'When I was at school, the rules included bans on facial hair, tattoos, jewellery, piercings, hair dye, make-up & lipstick and, together with a strict dress code, these rules were rigorously enforced. It was explained to me, as someone who often questioned the logic of some of the rules, that school was a preparation for adulthood where rules would be replaced by laws and teachers replaced by other authority figures and that I would find the transition easier if I learned to follow the rules now.

Parents could make teachers' lives easier if they behaved responsibly and did not give their children the impression that the rules do not apply to them'.

isn't school meant to be about teaching independence of thought?

Edited September 12, 2015 by feral chile