What women (don't) want.

[bunique]

Are you kidding?! School is all about conformity!

[feral chile]

Are you kidding?! School is all about conformity!

Ye-eah, but are they supposed to be about conformity?

 

even in the Grammar School, there were some teachers way back in the 70's who encouraged critical thinking, and some teachers were pretty militant, as they were in my kids' school.

 

one of their teachers used to take the sixth form down the pub.

 

I'm not sure if I'm only seeing the bits I want to see, or my memories are distorted - or whether there is a cultural difference in schools.

 

edit: apparently Wales bases the curriculum on skill based learning rather than knowledge based, so the learning process itself is emphasised.

 

(I can't quote the article - it's by David Hawker in the College of Teachers)

​

Edited September 12, 2015 by feral chile

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Which is wrong, in my opinion. School should be about opening up the possibilities, not shutting them down.

 

Edward de Bono for all would get my vote.

[bunique]

Which is wrong, in my opinion. School should be about opening up the possibilities, not shutting them down.

Not saying it's right! You know my preference for schools as we've discussed it before and it's certainly not those that breed conformity! But in the state system I don't think there's much alternative.

Incidentally I was *delighted* to read in my daughter's school newsletter a reminder that both girls AND boys with shoulder length hair must tie it back for PE. No stupid "to the collar" rules for boys, hooray!

[feral chile]

Not saying it's right! You know my preference for schools as we've discussed it before and it's certainly not those that breed conformity! But in the state system I don't think there's much alternative.

Incidentally I was *delighted* to read in my daughter's school newsletter a reminder that both girls AND boys with shoulder length hair must tie it back for PE. No stupid "to the collar" rules for boys, hooray!

 

I was wondering last night if there's a class element involved too, with Wales being predominantly working class. Is there a tightrope to walk between fostering a learning culture and maintaining discipline?

 

Even then, there are differences. There's a huge difference in attitude between the mining community where I grew up, and the inner city area where my kids grew up. In one, teachers and education are respected, learning is encouraged, you lived in fear of the teacher grassing you to your parents, as both worked together with good communication, and there are few disruptions, as anyone outside that culture was a truant. In the city, education was mistrusted as part of the establishment, and teaching was disrupted constantly.

 

it's not just a time thing, after we moved back to the Valleys, I noticed the difference, teachers kept me well up to date with my kids' school reality, even my straight A child had teachers ringing to say he was not good with time management. and teachers gave up their own time to hold study sessions in school holidays. Which were well attended. (still state education).

[bunique]

That happens in every school feral! It's not done out of the goodness of their heart, it's done because residual grades are everything!

[feral chile]

That happens in every school feral! It's not done out of the goodness of their heart, it's done because residual grades are everything!

 

mmm...maybe you're right, I only have inner city primary schools to compare with - at that stage, I was aso worried about the lack of parental engagement and the anti education culture that I moved back to the Valleys.

 

They still managed to teach kids (in school uniform, admittedly) with blue spikes, goths, punks, etc. with no problem.

 

Good on your school for applying non gender specific rules to hair, by the way.

 

I do have an issue with the hair dye, because it impacts on the child's choices outside school too - it's not like she can wash it off for school. And it wasn't a particularly extreme colour.

 

Us reds are always getting flack

[frostypaw]

isn't school meant to be about teaching independence of thought?

Thought has utterly nothing to do with what you wear!!

I mean my god you're meant to be at a place of learning and you can't let go of hair dye?

This is, I'm afraid, to me where the real sexist issues lie - that a large number of the population are so programmed that their physical appearance is so important.

Besides the very point is that she isn't a red-head, she's dying her hair that colour because she thinks it's more attractive/looks better/parents and school has failed her in letting her know there's nothing wrong with how she looks that needs pigments and dyes applied to it to make it more acceptable.

Then if you do allow her how do you stop the next girl who goes to bright red? Then neon pink? Then half the girls playing hair colour games and spending loads, getting attention for it and losing focus on their work? Where do you draw the line? How about at "how you look isn't what's important so leave it alone, what matters is who is inside" - it's a positive message.

I'm afraid I think you both (fc/tb) are arguing from the perspective of being one of the good kids at school who does want to apply themselves and does have a sensible head on their shoulders, your adult head. It's not how most young people think they've not had all your experience - remember the cool kids and all their hangers on etc. look at the numbers who tried smoking over the years not for wanting to smoke but to hang with the cool kids etc you don't know what matters then. And where are those cool kids who were allowed to express themselves so freely now?

[feral chile]

Thought has utterly nothing to do with what you wear!!

I mean my god you're meant to be at a place of learning and you can't let go of hair dye?

This is, I'm afraid, to me where the real sexist issues lie - that a large number of the population are so programmed that their physical appearance is so important.

Besides the very point is that she isn't a red-head, she's dying her hair that colour because she thinks it's more attractive/looks better/parents and school has failed her in letting her know there's nothing wrong with how she looks that needs pigments and dyes applied to it to make it more acceptable.

Then if you do allow her how do you stop the next girl who goes to bright red? Then neon pink? Then half the girls playing hair colour games and spending loads, getting attention for it and losing focus on their work? Where do you draw the line? How about at "how you look isn't what's important so leave it alone, what matters is who is inside" - it's a positive message.

I'm afraid I think you both (fc/tb) are arguing from the perspective of being one of the good kids at school who does want to apply themselves and does have a sensible head on their shoulders, your adult head. It's not how most young people think they've not had all your experience - remember the cool kids and all their hangers on etc. look at the numbers who tried smoking over the years not for wanting to smoke but to hang with the cool kids etc you don't know what matters then. And where are those cool kids who were allowed to express themselves so freely now?

That's an interesting perspective. So, you think that self expression and conformity might not be as straightforward as we're thinking, as conforming to school rules might be preventing conforming to societal stereotypes/subgroups, and that what could be seen as sexism might actually be an anti sexism measure, have I got you right?

[feral chile]

That happens in every school feral! It's not done out of the goodness of their heart, it's done because residual grades are everything!

We did away with league tables, not sure how Welsh schools are assessed and how that impacts.

I know you're knowledgeable about this bunique, I can't remember what it is you do, but it's connected, I believe, so I'll bow to your more informed opinion on this

[bunique]

Feral - don't bow at all I don't know enough about the welsh system but I would take a stab that performance management is still linked to results, league tables or no. So while it's great that teachers are supportig their pupils and I am certain that they want their classes to do well, there is some self-preservation going on there too!

Out of interest (because I genuinely don't know!) how many schools in wales have converted to academies since 2010? Would indicate whether they are under the same pressure as English schools

[feral chile]

Feral - don't bow at all I don't know enough about the welsh system but I would take a stab that performance management is still linked to results, league tables or no. So while it's great that teachers are supportig their pupils and I am certain that they want their classes to do well, there is some self-preservation going on there too!

Out of interest (because I genuinely don't know!) how many schools in wales have converted to academies since 2010? Would indicate whether they are under the same pressure as English schools

 

 

The Welsh Assembly doesn't approve, so none, as far as I know, unless they've changed their minds. it's a pretty different education system in Wales, I think.

 

this forum doesn't allow me to quote or link, but basically Wales is committed to comprehensive education, so no academies.

Edited September 13, 2015 by feral chile

[russycarps]

The good old tonyblair anti school uniform debate. How I've missed this.

School uniforms create a level playing field among rich and poor, reducing peer pressure (if only by a little bit)

They make teachers lives easier as it's much easier to police a school uniform dress code than otherwise. Or does tony think students should be able to wear whatever they please to school? T shirts with inappropriate slogans? Bikinis?

Uniforms create a feeling of belonging in a school community. This is something more disadvantaged students may not feel anywhere else

Helps students focus on school work not what they or others are wearing

Makes parents lives easier and saves them money

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are plenty of other justifications too.

Seems to me the only argument against is 'prevents freedom of expression' which seems pretty pathetic to me, considering all the myriad of opportunities students have at school to express their individuality via their school work, sport and extra curricular activities.

I know tony thinks his kids are perfect and none of the reasons above apply to then, but for the majority of kids wearing a uniform has more pros then cons.

Edited September 13, 2015 by russycarps

[bunique]

I'm not sure about "saves money" - most of my 4 year olds daytime clothes come from charity shops. Her uniform cost is nearly £100 and I'm just hoping it sees is through til next year!

[frostypaw]

That's an interesting perspective. So, you think that self expression and conformity might not be as straightforward as we're thinking, as conforming to school rules might be preventing conforming to societal stereotypes/subgroups, and that what could be seen as sexism might actually be an anti sexism measure, have I got you right?

Actually OMFG.

Did it genuinely not ever occur to you?

I think that might be where the sense of some feminists being a little 'jumpy' comes from - to first assume it's a sexist policy than the more obvious "you're here to learn not engage in mating rituals" is well... kinda jumpy. Of course you can't stop them, and the fall out can result in all kinds of dramas but schools have to do what they can.

Treat all kids the same because some of them are difficult? So the lowest common denominator rules...?

Ok....

Now that really is an interesting perspective.... Yes. Let's test it with another item. All kids are not allowed to carry knifes because 'some of them are difficult' - the lowest common denominator rules...? All kids are not allowed to have mobiles on/out in class becase 'some of them are difficult' - the lowest common denominator rules...?

I can keep going. But I thinkhope you see my point here. The reason you need rules is because people break them, it's not for fun.

Well mostly. As with some of our actual laws there are some bollocks rules

Edited September 14, 2015 by frostypaw

[eFestivals]

it's incredible to think we're still having the same debates we've been having for at least 40 years, probably a lot longer.

you're certainly having the same debates as 40 years ago. Women empowered by doing men's bidding, ffs.

[russycarps]

I'm not sure about "saves money" - most of my 4 year olds daytime clothes come from charity shops. Her uniform cost is nearly £100 and I'm just hoping it sees is through til next year!

 

 

well if tonyblair becomes prime minister and uniforms are abolished, what sort of a time at school do you think your kids will have when they get to 12 or 13 (or less) if they are dressed in charity shop clothes...

 

£100 is a lot, but it's a lot less than parents having to fork out for the latest trainers and whatever else the latest "must be seen in or risk being bullied" fashion fad is every other month.

 

And then there's the matter of kids having their trainers being stolen. I dont think there's many instances of kids having their clarkes stolen..

[eFestivals]

well if tonyblair becomes prime minister and uniforms are abolished

not uniforms, he said dress codes.

so I guess he'll first be abolishing the no-nakedness laws.

Edited September 14, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

How do you think other countries, many of them with better education results than the uk's manage without outdated ideas like the need for uniform

do you think their better education is the result of dress codes or not? Then you're stupid.

Just out of interest tony, do you support less education for kids?

Edited September 14, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

you're both showing an excellent use of ridiculous exaggerations this morning. Is there something in the water?

 

are the no-nakedness laws a dress code or not?

 

so either you have to abolish those laws if you're for no-dress-code, or you have to realise you're in favour of dress codes.

 

If it's the 2nd, then it all becomes about defining the limits of what is acceptable dress or not. A dress code!

[eFestivals]

precisely. What kids wear is nothing to do with education.

 

 

I think a lot of the time kids spend at school is already a waste of time.

 

in another thread this morning you got upset with me for not answering your question directly.

 

It's good to see you're the moron you condemn.

[eFestivals]

precisely. What kids wear is nothing to do with education.

 

Thank you.

 

Then that applies equally whether there's a dress code or there's no dress code - which means uniforms don't need to be banned.

[eFestivals]

I'm 'for' treating kids with respect, and not like they're being conscripted

so, where does "treating kids with respect" kick-in in your pretend world of no-dress-codes that includes dress codes?

Edited September 14, 2015 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

I'm 'for' treating kids with respect, and not like they're being conscripted

 

 

The company I work for imposes a dress code. Am I being disrespected just like the kids are?

 

I guess I had better go on strike right now and demand the right to be able to attend meetings in my speedos.

[eFestivals]

You have a choice

 

and so do the kids you say should be treated with respect.

Except you want to stop respecting them at some point to impose your will on them, while pretending you're not doing that.

Which is about the least possible respect you could show them. You're expecting them to be able to read your mind.

Edited September 14, 2015 by eFestivals