What women (don't) want.

[eFestivals]

so why do you think girls aren't justified in moaning about it then, and should just abide by it? Shouldn't they be challenging it, like you thought I should be doing about Page 3?

If you think women are socialised into showing off their breasts, do you not think that they might be socialised to cover up, or that authority figures might be socialised to get them covered up?

this might be where we're misunderstanding each other. My interest is not in whether there's a dress code or not - I know there is. My interest is in who's setting it, and who should set it. I don't particularly care whether the dress code is cover up, show yourself, what - I'm interested in conformity and the limits and tensions within.

When women are able to agree amongst themseleves is the time to start pointing the finger at men.

There can be no conformity of views just as there can be no non-sexist code. There's different drivers for different views dependent on a person's point in life.

None of that is saying there cannot be bad rules, driven by abnomal ideas. Religion probably holds the guilt for most of these.

[feral chile]

When women are able to agree amongst themseleves is the time to start pointing the finger at men.

There can be no conformity of views just as there can be no non-sexist code. There's different drivers for different views dependent on a person's point in life.

None of that is saying there cannot be bad rules, driven by abnomal ideas. Religion probably holds the guilt for most of these.

 

well yes, that was what I was saying about feminist views. You have at least 2 different strands of feminism who could argue that either girls should wear what they like, and the rules are sexist, male defined, by suppressing female sexuality, or that provocative clothes are male defined, and the rules are there for anti sexist reasons.

 

if you start with patriarchy, then you're drawn to blame everything on male control. The girls' dress, the rules, everything, till you can't decide on which is which, and how to challenge it..

 

And yes, you're right, you'll see patriarchy, or lack of it, and resistance to it, in different things, depending on your life events. Including whether you feel your sexuality is being oppressed or male defined.

Edited September 14, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

tony - bloody site/microsoft edge is still messing with my links etc. - look up hidden curriculum on sociology about.

 

Definition: Hidden curriculum is a concept that describes the often unarticulated and unacknowledged things that students are taught in school and is an important issue in the sociological study of how schools generate social inequality. For example, female students, students in lower-class families, or those belonging to subordinate racial categories, are often treated in ways that create or reinforce inferior self-images.

 

They are also often granted little trust, independence, or autonomy and are thus willing to submit to authority for the rest of their lives. On the other hand, students who belong to dominant social groups tend to be treated in ways that enhance their self-esteem, independence, and autonomy and are therefore more likely to be successful.

​

 

neil - now and then I get an error message that says this site says invalid argument when I try to quote - is that you being hilarious or a genuine site/compatibility issue?

 

 

​

Edited September 14, 2015 by feral chile

[frostypaw]

Neil still managed to disagree vociferously with me though.

Don't underestimate the man's skills! 

 

so why do you think girls aren't justified in moaning about it then, and should just abide by it? Shouldn't they be challenging it, like you thought I should be doing about Page 3?

Yes. Challenge it if it's silly (women must cover their faces and all bare skin at all times because otherwise men will rape them) but when it's even and fair deal with it even if you don't like it - you took the job/you went to that school/etc and the idea is to negate the competing over image (be it tarting up or trainer envy) because work/school isn't the place for it - nothing sexist in the motivations.

Incidentally if you want a genuinely bonkers thing to argue about instead try this on for size

Fashion police: Alabama town to ban saggy pants and too-short shorts after councilman ‘prayed about this’

Now that's a whole different kettle of fish and I'd be right alongside you i think

[eFestivals]

if you start with patriarchy, then you're drawn to blame everything on male control.

 

Only if you want to get the wrong answers.

 

Just because things are male defined doesn't mean they're wrongly defined. Getting the right answer is about getting the right answer, it's not about blaming someone for the wrong answer.

[eFestivals]

If, as you say (and essentially I agree) that what you wear isn't important, then it's just as important to not tell people what to wear (when it's not necessary) isn't it?

 

 

if you think what you wear isn't important, why are you so against uniforms?

 

You don't think that what you wear isn't important. You think it's important that people don't wear uniforms.

 

One day you might manage to understand your own thoughts.

[eFestivals]

I think it's important that other people aren't in a position to tell me, or you, what to wear

Sorry if some concepts are too complicated for your narrow mind

 

It's not me unable to see the contradiction in your first line there.

 

You are trying to dictate others freedom to choose for themselves.

 

If "what you wear isn't important" to you then the free choices of others wouldn't concern you. The very fact that the free choices of others concerns you proves your claim untrue.

 

It is not important what people wear, and therefore it is not important if people as a collective either chose to wear or chose not to wear uniforms.

[russycarps]

I think it's important that other people aren't in a position to tell me, or you, what to wear

 

 

 

do you know of any places where that is the case? (apart from in your own home).

[russycarps]

my place of work... the bars and clubs I go to, my friends homes,

 

actually, nearly everywhere I go

 

 

the same place of work where the boss told someone they couldnt wear inappropriate clothes?

 

try wearing a tshirt saying "I hate n*ggers" on it at your bars and clubs. See what happens.

 

There are dress codes in all walks of life. 

[eFestivals]

Life is full of contradictions. I understand that. You seem to have problems with it

I see your own lack of awareness of your own.

If you didn't start off falsely denying them there'd be fewer things for me to laugh at.

Edited September 15, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I was 14.

and I had to wear a poxy cap!

 

it was quite a while ago....

 

... but you've never got over the humiliation you felt?

 

Just a guess.

[eFestivals]

I have this odd faith in my fellow humans to manage it on their own

 

misplaced faith, as you've already admitted that the boss had to have a word with someone.

[eFestivals]

and that someone accepted the comment and didn't wear that dress again

 

what's the problem again?

 

'cause no-one ever breaks a defined dress code, ever, do they?

 

Have you asked the female affected if she sees your lack of problem?

 

Her need to be disciplined is a direct consequence of the decision to not have clearly defined rules.

 

And then feral could jump in here, to call out the men (you?) who objected to this woman's dress as being sexist. Perhaps the whole 'no rules' thing is actually a device of patriarchy to humiliate women?

 

[russycarps]

and that someone accepted the comment and didn't wear that dress again

what's the problem again?

'cause no-one ever breaks a defined dress code, ever, do they?

So you admit there is a dress code at your work then. Thanks. Inappropriate female clothing is not allowed.

I wonder what else isn't allowed. Speedos? Bikinis? T-shirts with political or religious slogans?

Edited September 15, 2015 by russycarps

[feral chile]

Have you asked the female affected if she sees your lack of problem?

 

Her need to be disciplined is a direct consequence of the decision to not have clearly defined rules.

 

And then feral could jump in here, to call out the men (you?) who objected to this woman's dress as being sexist. Perhaps the whole 'no rules' thing is actually a device of patriarchy to humiliate women?

 

 

So now I'm the one seeing patriarchy everywhere, yet when I was saying it's not all one sided you practically accused me of being a Holocaust denier, most definitely not a feminist, and a betrayer of women for not agreeing with womankind as a whole (which is extremely difficult, since we're a diverse bunch, as you rightly point out)

[feral chile]

You and Neil aren't 'alf funny

And you acuse me of being obtuse

tony, you probably have a proviso in there, like mine 'unless it causes offence'. So they usually turn a blind eye unless someone complains. And then it becomes a bit subjective.

[feral chile]

Shock!

 

can't quote as it's a PDF source, but my kids' school are gingerist! they list red hair in with blue and green and call it a non human colour!

Edited September 15, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

My old school uniform:

Uniform

GIRLS YEARS 7 - 11

Plain burgundy A-line skirt/or black tailored trousers.

White school blouse/shirt buttoned to the neck.

V-neck burgundy jumper/cardigan with Heolddu badge.

Plain burgundy tie with Heolddu badge.

Plain low-heeled black shoes (no boots or trainers are allowed).

Knee length plain socks (white or burgundy) or burgundy tights.

Suitable rain/shower-proof coat. Denim or leather are not allowed. Top coats should not be worn inside school buildings.

Make-up and jewellery should not be worn.

Hair should be neat and tidy and of an acceptable style and colour. Long hair

should be tied back for safety.

GIRLS' SPORTS KIT

Short sleeved open necked white polo shirt.

Short wrapover burgundy games skirt.

Training shoes (an ordinary pair suitable for sport, not discos!).

Swimsuit/shower towel.

Sports bag.

BOYS YEARS 7 - 11

Burgundy blazer with Heolddu badge.

Dark grey/black school trousers.

White or grey school shirt buttoned to the neck.

Plain burgundy tie with small Heolddu badge.

Plain black shoes (no boots or trainers are allowed)

Grey V-neck pullover.

Suitable rain/showerproof coat. Denim or leather are not allowed. Top coats

should not be worn inside school buildings.

Jewellery should not be worn.

Hair should be neat and tidy and of an acceptable style and colour.

(NB: Moustaches and beards are not allowed).

BOYS’ SPORTS KIT

Burgundy rugby jersey.

Plain white T-shirt.

Pair of black rugby socks.

Black shorts.

Rugby/football boots.

Trainers (an ordinary pair suitable for sport, not discos!)

Swimming trunks/shower towel.

Sports bag.

YEARS 12, 13, 14.

Traditional white school blouse/shirt buttoned to the neck.

School tie.

Black V-neck sweater/cardigan - sweatshirts bearing logos are not allowed.

Traditional style black trousers or skirt.

Plain black shoes (no boots or trainers are allowed).

Black socks/stockings.

Suitable top coat. Denim and leather are not acceptable.

One discreet pair of stud earrings are permitted. No type of hoop earrings are to be worn for safety reasons.

(NB: Moustaches and beards are not allowed).

Notice the assumption that boys don't wear makeup, and girls don't have moustaches. Sexists!

That gym skirt was a source of embarrassment, encouraging catcalls - we were supposed to wear just gym knickers under it but we all wore shorts. it was microscopic, which seems strange when you think of all the activity girls were undertaking, when the school skirt had strict length rules.

[kaosmark2]

Shock!

 

can't quote as it's a PDF source, but my kids' school are gingerist! they list red hair in with blue and green and call it a non human colour!

It's OK, gingers don't have souls anyway

[feral chile]

http://www.jla.co.uk/uploads/images/DrBrianCox_03.jpg

I've been having fun tonight objectifying this guy

[eFestivals]

http://www.jla.co.uk/uploads/images/DrBrianCox_03.jpg

I've been having fun tonight objectifying this guy

you'll be in trouble with the sisterhood. Perhaps you should watch last night's Newsnight to get a particularly humourless take on it.

[frostypaw]

I think it's important that other people aren't in a position to tell me, or you, what to wear

But that's what's so ridiculous - you think that, but then you're perfectly happy when someone tells a girl at work to adjust how she dresses.

Your position entirely relies on people knowing what the unspoken rules are, but once you consider those breached you're happy about it being enforced.

It's rather short sighted don't you think? I suspect if your child had wanted to go into school virtually naked or wearing a hitler costume suddenly you'd have opinions about what they were wearing too - but for as long as you can stay in the cozy little bubble of it not being needed it's possible to maintain the illusion you live 'free' and noone can tell you what you can or cannot wear.

Grow the fuck up. You have to accept that you have guidelines, even if you prefer to not have them written down. We don't need to go around this again tbh.

 

I was already having sex and taking drugs when I still had to wear short trousers to school as part of my uniform...!?!?

I'm kinda getting that you are really pissed that you had to wear shorts and cap while you were 'being a man' already. Because despite you getting your oats folk don't really agree so I'm not sure it's relevant Edited September 16, 2015 by frostypaw

[feral chile]

I don't understand why you're so aggressive to me

I was quite happy for the girl to carry on wearing what she liked. What's the difference between breaking unspoken but usually understood rules, or breaking specifically defined ones? Or are you under the illusion that if their defined their less likely to be broken?

We have a difference of opinion. Is that so bad?

To me, the difference is that if the rules are defined, you can check if they're fair, and you can point to them if you're unfairly treated.

But unspoken ones - they include vague feelings that people don't 'fit'.

It's quite difficult to avoid a 'uniform' - despite my best efforts not to draw attention to myself by wearing conservative clothes, someone mentioned today that I seem 'bohemian'.

And I dress smart-casual.

[frostypaw]

I don't understand why you're so aggressive to me

I was quite happy for the girl to carry on wearing what she liked. What's the difference between breaking unspoken but usually understood rules, or breaking specifically defined ones? Or are you under the illusion that if their defined their less likely to be broken?

We have a difference of opinion. Is that so bad?

Because you frustrate me immensely.

The difference between unspoken and clearly defined rules is something we've gone over several times within the past 20/30 pages. That's why I end up pissy - in about two paragraph's time maybe we'll have nailed down this bit and some other part will pop out and we'll have to go around that bit of the argument again, by which time this bit will be forgotten once more. I remember this process in other threads.

When a rule is written down it can be clearly seen and criticised and seen to be fairly applied. when such rules are not defined it then becomes a matter of personal taste, preference and discretion as to whether they are applied. The door is opened not only to those who would abuse the lack of clear definition to inflict upon others, but also to accusations of such where with no clear guidance any judgement can be called into question, and any decision made there remains dubious.

An alternative test of the argument is to see if it can be applied consistently. "why do we have laws so clearly defined (in theory)? What's the difference between breaking unspoken but usually understood rules, or breaking specifically defined ones? Or are you under the illusion that if they're defined they're less likely to be broken?"

It sounds obviously foolish when you expand the context. This is a basic logical step you should apply to your arguments before saying them

[feral chile]

As I've pointed out loads of times, my main issue is with uniforms, not dress 'codes' (although the differences aren't always so obvious). And this was brought up by kids breaking the rules that defined their uniforms, and the ensuing problems that creates (kids getting sent home, parent having to take time off work to sort out the 'problem', that sort of thing. If the rules weren't there, they couldn't be broken.

At my kids school, when they introduced the uniform, many parents welcomed it. My response was if they wanted their kids to go to a school that had a uniform, why did they sent them ot the one school that didn't have one?

And their claim that it made their life easier when getting their kids dressed, because there was a set of clothes ready to wear confused me. Why not buy another set of clothes, call it a uniform if you like, and just use them for school? There wasn't one reason for a uniform that made sense to me. It's not cheaper, as I said to Russy, how can another set of clothes be a cheaper option? - to which I had no response.

The issue, though, is whether the 'rules' whether overt or hidden, are fair. The girls seemed to think they were being used arbitrarily, that they were being sexualised. I remember my headmaster questioning if it was appropriate for me to go into the boys' yard (we were segregated) and play touch etc. (which had never been a problem in primary school). Being outspoken, I replied 'only if you have a dirty mind'. And that's really the elephant in the room. I didn't want to be thinking of sexual things, and some of these rules are forcing girls to think of themselves as sexual.