What women (don't) want.

[eFestivals]

The issue, though, is whether the 'rules' whether overt or hidden, are fair. The girls seemed to think they were being used arbitrarily, that they were being sexualised. I remember my headmaster questioning if it was appropriate for me to go into the boys' yard (we were segregated) and play touch etc. (which had never been a problem in primary school). Being outspoken, I replied 'only if you have a dirty mind'. And that's really the elephant in the room. I didn't want to be thinking of sexual things, and some of these rules are forcing girls to think of themselves as sexual.

They think of themselves as sexual at some pointvirregardless of any rules. What's the point of pretending that's not a factor in things?

[feral chile]

They think of themselves as sexual at some pointvirregardless of any rules. What's the point of pretending that's not a factor in things?

yeah, when they're ready, not when someone else decides.

We're talking underage kids here, remember. peer pressure's bad enough but when your teacher's even telling you that you're too sexy for school...

Edited September 16, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

I've tried to resist posting this, but it has been on my mind throughout this discussion

[feral chile]

Uniforms are there until they leave school. They're not all underage.

No, and I'm not totally disagreeing with you, there are pros and cons with both scenarios.

[midnight]

The good old tonyblair anti school uniform debate. How I've missed this.

School uniforms create a level playing field among rich and poor, reducing peer pressure (if only by a little bit)

They make teachers lives easier as it's much easier to police a school uniform dress code than otherwise. Or does tony think students should be able to wear whatever they please to school? T shirts with inappropriate slogans? Bikinis?

Uniforms create a feeling of belonging in a school community. This is something more disadvantaged students may not feel anywhere else

Helps students focus on school work not what they or others are wearing

Makes parents lives easier and saves them money

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are plenty of other justifications too.

Seems to me the only argument against is 'prevents freedom of expression' which seems pretty pathetic to me, considering all the myriad of opportunities students have at school to express their individuality via their school work, sport and extra curricular activities.

I know tony thinks his kids are perfect and none of the reasons above apply to then, but for the majority of kids wearing a uniform has more pros then cons.

 

The good old argument in favour of school uniforms, I have so NOT missed it, but there it is.

 

You got kids at school by any chance? I somehow doubt it. Tony has at least been there and done that.

 

School uniforms. I went to a school without uniforms, and my son now goes to a school where uniforms are compulsory (my first choice school was one without, but we didn’t get a place there).

 

Expenses: Uniforms are not cheaper, unless you habitually dress your child with brand new things from the Boden catalogue. See various other comments. My son wore nice hand-me-downs and decent second-hand-shop clothes, new things were usually birthday or Christmas gifts from extended family. Clothing him cost me next to nothing until he needed a school uniform. Now he needs new clothes at the beginning of each school year, and not just one set. At 7, he is no messier than the average kid (I hope), but most days he comes home covered in dust, mud, paint, sweat, food bits, or any combination of those. I have a full time job and cannot wash every night, so he needs about 3 sets to get me through the week. That’s the bare minimum. He plays in his school clothes during breaks and regularly tears or loses things. When it comes to losing clothes or “accidental” swaps (perhaps they really are all accidental, with all the clothes looking the same), he always comes home with an old, frayed and tatty jumper, and the one he lost was new. We’ve lost about 5 jumpers that way over the last 2 years, only one came back after a mum identified it as ours (although all his clothes are marked with his name). The other 4 probably made some poor kid who was feed up with wearing something frayed and washed out very happy. Can’t say I’m bitter, as they probably need them more than we do, but it is not cheap. If something is lost or torn, it needs to be replaced immediately with exactly the same item that can only be ordered through the school (I tried the second hand uniform sale they hold twice a year, but most stuff was in a woeful state, plus you have to be lucky to get the right size). Now, imagine you had more than one child and at different schools (primary and secondary) - you do the maths. And the washing, as you can’t leave it all until the weekend. Or you buy 5 identical kits. Whatever it is, cheaper it isn't.

 

Alas, I’m lucky, I can afford it. I regularly get phone calls at work from parents who can’t and are looking for funding for school uniforms for their kids (they are calling me in vain, usually just because my job title has “funding” it, I can't award money for that kind of problem). 

 

It may well be easier for the teachers in some ways, but loyalty to the school community? If we need uniforms to create that loyalty, we are in serious trouble. I can see why armies need uniforms, but schools? Seriously? I identified with my school without a uniform, but I also liked the fact that I wasn’t instantly identifiable as “a girl from so-and-so” after I’d passed through the gates to go home. Btw, I am not sure whether kids from disadvantaged backgrounds really have no place or community they feel loyal to, that is a strange assumption. I’m neither delusional nor idealistic, btw, I’ve worked with all sorts. 

 

Popularity, wealth, the great equaliser. My son knows who has got the coolest gadgets, the big house with a garden, etc., and who doesn’t, uniform or not. I have to manage his expectations now (I want a phone! an iPad!! an xbox!!! a puppy!!!!), and I will have to manage them when he gets to being a teenager - just as my parents had to manage mine, and they did. Most kids are way too smart to be made believe that they are more equal as a result of being made to wear the same clothes. Nor does the uniform do away with sexual attraction. Nor is the kid in the most expensive clothes necessarily the most popular (yes, really!).

Of course I sometimes coveted those smart expensive jeans worn by the prettiest girl in my class. Guess what, at the tender age of 13 or 14 I realised, that these clothes, even if I wore them, would not make me equally pretty. She probably would have looked great wrapped in any old bath-towel, but I wasn’t blessed with such an unusual amount of grace and beauty, and no fancy clothes would ever make a big difference. I was teased about my clothes sometimes, but I took that in my stride, clothes can be changed. I found it much more hurtful when I was being teased about my height (aged 14, I was 5’10"- without shoes), because there was nothing I (or anyone else) would ever be able to do about it. What did that teach me? Exactly what Frostypaw says elsewhere, although he funnily enough uses it for the pro-uniform argument: “It’s what's inside that counts.” It cuts both ways, that argument. If I wasn’t cute or chic, I had to concentrate on what I was good at - i.e. apply my brains in the hope of getting a good job later on. Being nice and helpful to other people is no detriment to popularity either, I’ve found, though it gets you a somewhat different set of friends. The sooner kids learn this, the better. Boys or girls, some people will always be more attractive than others, and for the foreseeable future some will be richer than others, school uniforms or not.  And if a kid gets bullied, clothes are just one easy target, neither smart clothes nor uniforms will safe you from that, the bullies will just find something else, often much more hurtful and personal. The kid in my son's class who gets bullied is a boy with dyspraxia who behaves oddly at times - the uniform can't help him. Parents and teachers should. 

 

You can have a dress code without having to have a uniform. Uniforms are an extreme kind of dress code. If schools need to draw up dress codes because some kids are taking the piss and their parents can’t or won’t manage that, fair enough, a bikini is not the best attire for a class room. Like Tony, I have never seen or heard of a girl trying to pull that one off (and I live at the Hackney/Holloway borders), alas, who knows. But, at the other end of the spectrum, a debate about what hair colour is acceptable? Pathetic waste of time and energy. Would I be really unable to do my maths equation because the boy or girl in front of me had dyed their hair red or even blue? Only if I was looking for an excuse to not do my maths in the first place, but that’s a different story, absolutely any distraction would do then.  

 

Finally, yes, many other countries go about educating their kids reasonably well without uniforms. It’s been mentioned a couple of times, but none of the uniform-fans here wants to address this. There are differences in income and social status in those countries too, so why are the poor parents not campaigning for school uniforms, to spare their kids the trauma, can they not be bothered? My guess would be that the favourable attitude here in the UK has something to do with the private schooling system, school uniforms are a massive confidence trick that makes some parents believe the school that enforces them is “better”, more “professional”, has better discipline - a bit more like the coveted private sector, where school uniforms rule (of course, if you are part of such a special and expensive club, the rest of the world ought to know that you are). But many do not want to admit this to themselves, and this is then dressed up as uniforms having an equalising effect. Feels better. The schools is the same as before, but the kids now have to wear uniforms paid for by the parents (heh!), who somehow now think the school is better. Who do we think we are kidding?

 

But hey, at least everything looks nicely institutional. Army, hospital  - school. Got to catch them young.

Edited September 17, 2015 by midnight

[midnight]

Oh and a shout out for midnight too. Really interesting posts.

 

Thanks.

 

I've just massively gone off-topic, sorry, but at least it's not all kicking off in the General News thread anymore.

[frostypaw]

Great post midnight!

I think uniform is often settled on as it avoids a lot of the what is/isn't problems of a dress code - there's so much chance of it ending up vague with phrases like "deemed offensive" that are inevitably subjective that it can be easier to avoid the whole topic with a uniform.

Expensive ones certainly are a real issue - but clothing damage would happen to casual clothes just as much, and learning not to trash your stuff an inevitable part of growing up - though it's been noted at our school that kids care less about their stuff year on year. it's all more disposable, it all gets trashed and left out more. Not sure what the answer is there, clearly schools that deviate from uniform that's available cheaply aren't quite on it there. If they're going to trash their clothes anyway is it better that it's uniform or a new top they just got?

As to other countries they are other countries with different education systems with different problems to a degree - look at japan's schooling and the different attitude of kids to education. I can't speak for how it is in many other countries but discipline is a known problem here in a big way and it's seen as a way to instil some of that. Teachers I know say it's not got any easier in the classrooms, kids are no more keen to learn - there's a reason for bans on mobile phones etc. I suspect in some of the schools with uniform it's happened because kids have ended up competing over it and bullying those who can't keep up - the parents aren't grateful for it because they have to pay more for uniform after all.

To a degree I think you're right about how uniform schools are perceived - anyone on facebook recently will have seen the little flood of first day pictures go past - but I think also a lot of it is general suit culture and pride in your kid in "grown up clothes". Easy to read too much into it - I don't think linking those two things in that way is at all fair though I don't doubt there would be a few parents who might think that way I think most are genuinely interested in their kid's welfare, not how it looks like it is

[eFestivals]

yeah, when they're ready, not when someone else decides.

We're talking underage kids here, remember. peer pressure's bad enough but when your teacher's even telling you that you're too sexy for school...

 

I'm not advocating someone deciding for them, but that happens whether they like it or not. if someone fancies them, it's out there.

 

Unless the teacher is a paedo, the teacher won't be recognising something that a kid's peers haven't already recognised for themselves. The teacher will be attempting to lessen that recognition and effect, they're not starting it.

 

But let's pretend that sex isn't a part of life and then things will be so much better, yeah?

[eFestivals]

and this (often) is when kids are going through puberty. Sex IS a big thing at that age. As much as schools want to run away from the real world, some shit is gonna happen!

 

Blimey tony, you do have a brain in there after all.

[feral chile]

I'm not advocating someone deciding for them, but that happens whether they like it or not. if someone fancies them, it's out there.

 

Unless the teacher is a paedo, the teacher won't be recognising something that a kid's peers haven't already recognised for themselves. The teacher will be attempting to lessen that recognition and effect, they're not starting it.

 

But let's pretend that sex isn't a part of life and then things will be so much better, yeah?

I've got mixed feelings about uniforms, and none of us know the culture within any of these schools.

Midnight, great post as usual, some excellent points in there.

Tony - I know you're not keen on rules, but honestly, as a rep, I'm glad of them, they do offer protection for staff if they're clearly defined, as breaches can be addressed.

The Equality Act is a list of rules.

Edited September 17, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

I also think we get too used to rules being there, whether we need them or not.

Then, when people do things we don't like, we want a rule to be put in place. Followed almost instantly by people who don't like the rule, crying about us living in a nanny state.

If you think about it, most rules are there to protect against the adverse effects of unfettered freedom.

Or at least, that, to me is the only reason there should be rules.

I wouldn't say my children didn't have rules, but they were implicit. One was, think of the impact of your actions, and the other was, look after people including yourself.

So it was always about whether their freedom impacted on others.

Responsibility, I think it's called

Edited September 17, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

Well, that might be where we differ.

Why is there a rule (a law even) that we mustn't, or aren't allowed to take drugs?

Just for starters....

Again, I have mixed feelings about this. To protect people, I hope.

Though the argument that if drugs were regulated, we could still protect people, is a strong one.

There's so much prejudice around drug use - the stereotype is of a dysfunctional criminal, a danger to themselves and others. And this argument that cannabis leads to harder drugs is the most stupid thing ever - if it does, it does so because of the supply chain. Which is why tobacco and alcohol don't necessarily lead to illegal drugs.

They haven't even been able to conduct proper tests to determine what the risks are.

And we have a ridiculous situation where GP's hand out seriously heavy drugs with little regard. Some of these are given to control mental health patients, and a lot of the time it's to make them controllable, which is why lots of schizophrenics come off meds - their symptoms are preferable to the effects of the medication.

http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/1272463/revealed_the_prescription_drugs_and_medications_most_likely_to_harm_or_kill_you.html

Edited September 17, 2015 by feral chile

[midnight]

...

I think uniform is often settled on as it avoids a lot of the what is/isn't problems of a dress code - there's so much chance of it ending up vague with phrases like "deemed offensive" that are inevitably subjective that it can be easier to avoid the whole topic with a uniform.

Expensive ones certainly are a real issue - but clothing damage would happen to casual clothes just as much, and learning not to trash your stuff an inevitable part of growing up - though it's been noted at our school that kids care less about their stuff year on year. it's all more disposable, it all gets trashed and left out more. Not sure what the answer is there, clearly schools that deviate from uniform that's available cheaply aren't quite on it there. If they're going to trash their clothes anyway is it better that it's uniform or a new top they just got?

As to other countries they are other countries with different education systems with different problems to a degree - look at japan's schooling and the different attitude of kids to education. I can't speak for how it is in many other countries but discipline is a known problem here in a big way and it's seen as a way to instil some of that. Teachers I know say it's not got any easier in the classrooms, kids are no more keen to learn - there's a reason for bans on mobile phones etc. I suspect in some of the schools with uniform it's happened because kids have ended up competing over it and bullying those who can't keep up - the parents aren't grateful for it because they have to pay more for uniform after all.

To a degree I think you're right about how uniform schools are perceived - anyone on facebook recently will have seen the little flood of first day pictures go past - but I think also a lot of it is general suit culture and pride in your kid in "grown up clothes". Easy to read too much into it - I don't think linking those two things in that way is at all fair though I don't doubt there would be a few parents who might think that way I think most are genuinely interested in their kid's welfare, not how it looks like it is

 

Sure, all clothes would suffer wear and tear, but the ordinary ones are really cheap and easy to replace, by comparison, there's a thriving market in (sometimes barely) used clothes for children. I've always made use of that, not just because I'm stingy, but because I think of it as a kind of recycling. I hope to have instilled some more care and consideration by the time we get to secondary - if 14 year olds shred their trousers like 7 year olds do, I'll be broke! 

 

As for the other countries, I wouldn't dream of comparing with Japan, not only the traditions, the whole system of learning is quite different there.

I was thinking of France, Germany, Finland, Sweden....  More comparable in terms of traditions, culture, and also some shared history, particularly with France. I know the French abolished uniforms in the late 60s (they only had some kind of overcoat that the kids all wore to protect their normal clothes, anyway), and whenever the odd call to re-introduce them pops up, it usually comes from the politically right-of-centre-spectrum. Only a few very elitist private schools still have uniforms. Similar situation in Germany.

 

Teaching certainly is hard work. A lot of the current problems seem to be linked to the attitude to learning. I remember being highly motivated by the thought that crap results would significantly reduce  my choices later on. Doesn't seem to work for many kids now, but I can't see clothes making a difference. Perhaps it is to do with disillusion, as there are poor employment prospects, or with that famous sense of entitlement, or with different parenting styles - probably all of this and then some.

 

Most parents want what they think is best for their children, I'd never dispute that. The question is why they believe that one thing is better than another when it goes beyond the basic needs.

 

 

 

Anyway, thank you all for your patience, it was a bit of a long ramble I went on yesterday. I didn't realise how long it got until I posted it.    

[frostypaw]

Anyway, thank you all for your patience, it was a bit of a long ramble I went on yesterday. I didn't realise how long it got until I posted it.    

They're often the best ones.

I'd be interested in knowing how school culture is in these other countries to see if there is any pattern - gotta put my hands up and say not got a clue, not that into the topic to research that far. Until we know who knows to a degree. I do find the general attitude towards education very very strange now, and the screw-your-rules even worse... which leads too neatly onto tony's post to resist 

 

My love of no rules, is sometimes a slightly flippant take on things.

Although, when bringing up our kids, I found it a very useful fall back. If you can't come up with a good reason why they shouldn't do something, then maybe it's ok for them to do it...?

Thing is I think you're perfectly right for a lot of the population and kids included in that - but there are an astonishing number who cannot reason this stuff out. There are people who need to be told it's wrong to grab that boob that's right in your face in the tube, people who can't understand why their actions affecting other can be a bad thing

I shit you not that we had hours of discussion with a certain ex-colleague over why it was wrong to rape - he didn't really think it seemed that bad apart from you ending up damned by God. He simply didn't have the mental capacity to turn it around and imagine it happening to him.

He actually completely shook my view on religion etc's place - there are a lot of people who are only not running around stabbing people because of the beardy guy up there. People - en masse - need rules, even if individuals don't. The idea of anarchy is lovely until the guy who is willing to do the unthinkable turns up

[eFestivals]

I'm sure they are there to protect us. But it's so misguided. Why can't I choose what I put in my body? I know there are risks. There are risks every day I get out of my bed. Is life about eliminating all risks?

 

It's not so much about the risks but how others carry the consequences of those risks.

 

Me, I'm pro-liberalising the drug laws, but that doesn't mean I can't see the logic in the argument from the other side.

[fred quimby]

when your teacher's even telling you that you're too sexy for school...

 

were they in Right said Fred

[feral chile]

were they in Right said Fred

I'm...too sexy for my shirt....too sexy for my skirt....so sexy it hurts....

My collar bone's too hot for the school rules

I'm distracting all the fools

They need protecting from the flirts....

[eFestivals]

My collar bone's too hot for the school rules

 

 

thing is, does the men's uniform rules allow the showing of collar bones?

 

Oh look, it's not sexist after all, it's just some girl who wants to be able to wear what she likes.

[feral chile]

thing is, does the men's uniform rules allow the showing of collar bones?

 

Oh look, it's not sexist after all, it's just some girl who wants to be able to wear what she likes.

Can't say for sure, I think part of the problem in that particular school was that they didn't have firm rules, at least according to the report.

At least if you have a firm rule, you can argue the toss over whether it discriminates unfairly as far as a protected group is concerned (using EA rules for indirect discrimination - not sure if the US has an equivalent).

So then you'd be looking at whether the rule is reasonable.

What's the issue with collarbones, anyway? (with the school, I mean).

Edited September 18, 2015 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

What's the issue with collarbones, anyway? (with the school, I mean).

 

Is a male considered to be reasonably dressed with his shoulders exposed? Not in most circumstances.

 

So I would say it's merely about social normals and coming up with equal rules for the genders rather than anything else. If they go with the more-relaxed social norm for females they end up getting accused of sexism form the other side.

[feral chile]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/09/17/men-anxiety-depression_n_8153296.html

 

looks ​at mental health from a male perspective - ties in with patriarchal expectations.

​

[feral chile]

shit! This no dress code is a bloody minefield!

[feral chile]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anonymous-young-woman/an-untitled-poem_b_8196216.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

[russycarps]

Is it commonplace for underage girls to be molested in the ways described in this poem?

[feral chile]

Is it commonplace for underage girls to be molested in the ways described in this poem?

I didn't realise it still happened.

this was pretty much a daily occurrence for me while I was growing up.

(not the blowjob, but the constant harassment).

And yes, from before puberty.

Edited September 28, 2015 by feral chile