What women (don't) want.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, feral chile said:

when did she say that? I've only seen that video of her having to defend herself.

where she's defending herself for her original words about how the photo shoot and how she chose to dress for it was an act of feminism.

And where her defense is "if a woman chooses to do something that's feminism"

 

[feral chile]

33 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

oh ffs.

Why this photo and this woman? Because she *chose* to present herself - to the whole world - as a sexual plaything, when she could have made other choices about how to present herself.

There's fuck all obsession with Watson here. There is only a discussion about what she claimed for herself.

It's been pointed out - by men, and by women, including feminist women - that what she has chosen to do furthers the objectification of women and doesn't lessen it.

You're claiming that Watson was right and it lessens the objectification, yet we're pages in and you've yet to be able to give a reason for how it does.

I'm saying that judging women for how they look is part of the objectification.

we have to look some way, why can't we express ourselves, and our sexuality, any way we want?

Like Joan Jett?

I don't see 'I'm a sexual plaything' when I look at that photo. She says she thought it was beautiful and artistic, and so do I.

I'm not saying she's immune to the whole objectification thing, she's young and pretty, there's no way it can't affect her. But that's no excuse for her getting attacked for wanting to look good in a photo.

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

where she's defending herself for her original words about how the photo shoot and how she chose to dress for it was an act of feminism.

And where her defense is "if a woman chooses to do something that's feminism"

 

what were her original words then? because she's certainly not claiming that now.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I'm saying that judging women for how they look is part of the objectification.

no shit sherlock.

Objectification happens.

Objectification happens more when there's a greater amount of sexualisation in an image.

So how does increasing objectification become something that's better for women?

Edited March 10, 2017 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

where she says "feminism is about giving people choice".

Which is bollocks, unless any and every choice a woman might make - including to be subjugated by men - is an act of feminism.

I dunno about you, but every feminist I've ever met would laugh their tits off at that.

lots of feminists say that. She's saying that she has the right to choose, and feminism should support that, and she's confused that it doesn't.

She also says that feminism is about freedom and equality, not about women beating other women with a stick.

I'm in wholehearted agreement with her.

You're getting confused. Feminism is about choice. that doesn't mean every choice will be a feminist act.

I think this is why we were at odds over Page 3. I hate Page 3 personally. But I don't hate Page 3 models, because it would be very antifeminist of me to say they didn't have rights over their own bodies. (Regardless of my own personal feelings about how much choice they really have).

[feral chile]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

no shit sherlock.

Objectification happens.

Objectification happens more when there's a greater amount of sexualisation in an image.

So how does increasing objectification become something that's better for women?

I don't even see that image as sexual, to start with. lots of female feminist icons are very aggressively sexual. Do you have a problem with them too?

Yep, still waiting for your opinion of Joan Jett.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, feral chile said:

what were her original words then? because she's certainly not claiming that now.

so she's not claiming anything positive for feminism about the photo shoot?

 

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

so she's not claiming anything positive for feminism about the photo shoot?

 

hadn't seen your comments about choice.

I don't think she's actually saying that. What she's saying is, why is this an issue, feminism is about choice, therefore, why aren't you respecting my choice?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

She's saying that she has the right to choose, and feminism should support that, and she's confused that it doesn't.

which is back to what i said somewhere around the start of this talking about watson - that she doesn't get what feminism is.

Which is why she's confused.

And which is why she's wrong.

But you reckon it can't be said that she's wrong, because that's an equivalent of slut shaming. Which means you've sucked yourself up your own arse into your own shit.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

hadn't seen your comments about choice.

I don't think she's actually saying that. What she's saying is, why is this an issue, feminism is about choice, therefore, why aren't you respecting my choice?

because feminism isn't about choice.

FFS. :lol:

It''s about good choices and not bad choices. Choices that further equality for women rather than work against that.

Just because she's found it personally empowering doesn't make it feminist.

 

[feral chile]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

because feminism isn't about choice.

FFS.

It''s about good choices and not bad choices. Choices that further equality for women rather than work against that.

Just because she's found it personally empowering doesn't make it feminist.

 

she's not claiming it makes her feminist. What she's saying is that judging her isn't feminist.

ffs!

Edited March 10, 2017 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I don't even see that image as sexual, to start with. lots of female feminist icons are very aggressively sexual. Do you have a problem with them too?

If there's nothing sexual in that, i presume you think the same when you go to the shops with your tits out?

 

Quote

Yep, still waiting for your opinion of Joan Jett.

i have no meanfuling opinion of jett just as i have no meaningful opinion of watson, apart from her being 100% off-target with her claim of her own actions.

Edited March 10, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

she's not claiming it makes her feminist. What she's saying is that judging her isn't feminist.

ffs!

Is the latest big thing in the feminist movement that judging men is wrong too?

I guess that new thing must have passed me by.

[feral chile]

Not all women are feminists. Not all feminists agree on what feminism is. So, which women should 'feminism' fight for, and to achieve what?

So white, middle class feminists can tell other women what choices they should make?

Remember back in the 80's, when white middle class feminists were telling women they should go to work, and were then able to further their successful careers off the backs of the working class women they were paying peanuts to, for looking after their kids?

Who were they to say these working class women had to make the 'right choices' to further (their version of) feminism?

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Is the latest big thing in the feminist movement that judging men is wrong too?

I guess that new thing must have passed me by.

I don't know, is it?

shouldn't we be trying to end inequality so that women are no longer judged on what they wear, instead of judging women on what they wear?

both men and women alike?

[feral chile]

there's way too much of 'can you still be a feminist and do this...'

[eFestivals]

Just now, feral chile said:

Not all women are feminists.

Correct.

Might the ones who aren't also - perhaps - include Watson?

What makes Watson the feminist she says she is? Is it just because she says she is? That she chooses to call herself a feminist and - because "feminism is about choice" - that makes her one?

Or is there something deeper to it than an opinion of yourself?

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, feral chile said:

shouldn't we be trying to end inequality so that women are no longer judged on what they wear

Yep.

The question is: do we get closer to that via a promotion of the objectification thing?

I've been saying we don't. You've been telling me I'm wrong, but you've not said why.

I've also been saying Watson is wrong and why. You've yet to say why she's right.

[feral chile]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yep.

The question is: do we get closer to that via a promotion of the objectification thing?

I've been saying we don't. You've been telling me I'm wrong, but you've not said why.

I've also been saying Watson is wrong and why. You've yet to say why she's right.

Women can't avoid the objectification thing. Although, I noticed when I got fat I had person status, and when I got thin I got object status. I'm likely into another ism now though, at 56

What I'm saying is it's not as straightforward as you try to make it. Feminists can still make antifeminist comments, or actions, and in fact it's very difficult to tell which is feminist and which is antifeminist. we all carry our cultural conditioning around with us.

I didn't know a lot about her before this, apart from knowing she was cast as Hermione, and reading posts (on here I think) about how men couldn't wait until she was legal.

I don't even find that photo sexual, it's not provocative, it feels pretty neutral to me, it doesn't portray victim, I can't see the big deal - to even start with. it's not erotic at all imo.

So I'm not surprised she's confused about this, never mind the argument around what if she'd posed provocatively.

[feral chile]

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

If there's nothing sexual in that, i presume you think the same when you go to the shops with your tits out?

 

i have no meaning opinion of jett just as i have no meaningful opinion of watson, apart from her being 100% off-target with her claim of her own actions.

Part of why I keep harping on about Joan Jett, is that she was a powerful female icon, although pretty sexual, she looked like she's beat the shit out of anyone who messed with her. She seemed like a really strong role model.

Till this:

http://boingboing.net/2015/07/13/the-jackie-fox-rape-disclosure.html

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Women can't avoid the objectification thing

they can't, but they CAN influence how great it is.

 

17 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Feminists can still make antifeminist comments

Which has been my point.

Watson made an anti-feminist action, but then tried to claim it as feminist on merely the basis that she's female so therefore it must be feminist.

The 'anti-feminist action' was of no great consequence in itself, and not particularly worthy of comment. If you like, it's the way of the world, so doesn't really stand out for itself.

It became worthy of comment only because of the attempts to claim it as feminist.

 

23 minutes ago, feral chile said:

never mind the argument around what if she'd posed provocatively.

"what if"? PMSL

She *DID* -  unless that's how she dresses all the time (which we know she doesn't).

She's perfectly entitled to dress that way of course, but when she does it especially for the purposes of self/product promotion, it's being done to provoke.

[feral chile]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

they can't, but they CAN influence how great it is.

 

Which has been my point.

Watson made an anti-feminist action, but then tried to claim it as feminist on merely the basis that she's female so therefore it must be feminist.

The 'anti-feminist action' was of no great consequence in itself, and not particularly worthy of comment. If you like, it's the way of the world, so doesn't really stand out for itself.

It became worthy of comment only because of the attempts to claim it as feminist.

 

"what if"? PMSL

She *DID* -  unless that's how she dresses all the time (which we know she doesn't).

She's perfectly entitled to dress that way of course, but when she does it especially for the purposes of self/product promotion, it's being done to provoke.

She said that feminism should respect her right to choose. She didn't understand what her photoshoot had to do with her being a feminist.

She wasn't claiming it as a particularly feminist act, more as an act that feminism should defend as her choice.

there's a difference.

She wasn't showing anything. She could show just as much in a dress.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, feral chile said:

She said that feminism should respect her right to choose

and that's where she gets it wrong.

It's only the good choices that are worthy of respect, not the bad ones.

Just because it's a woman chosing doesn't make it a feminist act.

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

and that's where she gets it wrong.

It's only the good choices that are worthy of respect, not the bad ones.

Just because it's a woman chosing doesn't make it a feminist act.

the 'good choices' change.

the 'good choice' in the 80s was to go out to work, because women staying at home with kids were perpetuating the myth of the 'her indoors' stereotyping.

Now we support the free choice of women to stay home, go to work etc.

so a 'bad choice' has now become a 'good choice'.

surely, feminism should be sending a message that women should decide for themselves what's good for them, and not be defined by others?

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, feral chile said:

more as an act that feminism should defend as her choice.

But that's stupid, totally illogical. Or the words of the extremely self-centred / utterly ego-driven.

Feminism should defend what is good for feminism, and condemn was bad for feminism.

Just because it's been her choice to do something doesn't make that choice free of any fair criticism.

Whether or not that thing should be criticised is down to whether that thing can be criticised.

Nothing should get a free pass on the basis of it having been a choice, or because it's done by a woman, or perhaps even done super-special Emma whose choices are more important than other people's.

If what's she's done is worthy of criticism, it should be criticised (or at least, not have a free-pass from criticism)

This is where she gets feminism wrong, in my book.

It's that 'getting feminism wrong' part that is making me comment, far more than any rights and wrongs towards feminism of the photo (tho I'd say it takes a self-centred view - and not a 'women together' view - to think there's much right with that photo).

Edited March 10, 2017 by eFestivals