General Election 2015

[Comfy Bean]

Yet her own words make clear that position has changed now

So why is she dithering over the fox hunting issue? It's because she's trying to work out how the snp can use this issue to maximise their political gain.

The best case scenario for the snp is for them to vote against the repeal, but still lose the vote. Then she can claim she courageously stood up to the tories and still lost. Thus highlighting a further division between england and scotland.

However, if the snp vote is enough to defeat the repeal, this is of no use to her at all, as the fox hunting division between england and scotland will no longer exist. So in this instance it's better for them to abstain and the repeal to go ahead. Then she can point out how the nasty english hunt foxes while the scots do not.

The fact her decision means the difference between foxes living and dying means absolutely nothing to her in her quest for power.

Hey Russy, I`m sure your post is heartfelt mate and I doubt anyone on here is in favour of fox hunting. I get your passion on this subject but are you letting it cloud your judgement on what is actually happening here ?

Are the SNP " dithering over the fox hunting issue " ? I think they have been pretty clear on what they think of it and would have expected you to be supporting their stance.

Was having a vote on this in Westminster in the Tory manifesto ? Did they win the election ? Genuinely confused here as we have had months of we can`t have the tail wagging the dog, democracy etc.

She will not be " highlighting a further division between England and Scotland " as on fox hunting, that division clearly already exists as we know ( see relevant legislation ).

I sense that you guys are getting your excuses in early as you will have difficulty cheering for the SNP if / when they vote against this. Like with Trident, I suspect the SNP will do the right thing but in a race to condemn NS are we losing sight of the foxes here ?

All this talk of dithering and not making up their mind ?

Here`s what the Westminster leader of the SNP actually said ( some bits highlighted by me ) :

Interviewed by Murnaghan on Sunday :

DM: Okay, let’s ask you a specific question here, you of course used to be an SNP Member of Parliament in previous delegations that abstained on so many issues that you deemed to be affecting England and Wales only and not of Scottish interest or relevance. We’re told that’s going to change, let me put this you – a free vote coming up on fox hunting, of course a devolved issue, Scotland gets to decide what happens in that issue, is this something SNP MPs are going to vote on? It’s about England and Wales, whether the ban should continue, be changed or extended. Are you going to vote on that?

ANGUS ROBERTSON: You’d be right to point out that the SNP has of course opposed fox hunting and it’s with SNP votes that now no longer continues in Scotland. It is now mooted that this issue is going to be brought up for the rest of the United Kingdom and can I take the opportunity to thank all of the campaigners who have been getting in touch, there’s a massive lobbying operation going to try and ensure that the ban is not repealed in the rest of the UK. SNP MPs still have to consider the legislation which of course we haven’t seen so we need to see it but of course we will be looking at that closely. You do of course understand that the UK government imposes its will in Scotland without any significant legitimacy whatsoever so we are having legislation foisted on Scotland with only one MP so we have to look at all of the issues coming forward in this new parliament, following the independence referendum on its merits and we will be doing that when we see the legislation that is proposed by the government but I reiterate what I said, the votes of the SNP was that fox hunting was banned …

DM: It’s quite clear on fox hunting that Scotland can already make its own decision and has done about the future of fox hunting in Scotland. This about England and Wales, it’s a simple question, what will SNP MPs do?

ANGUS ROBERTSON: I’m sorry, have you seen the legislation?

DM: I haven’t read it through myself yet, no.

ANGUS ROBERTSON: No, neither have I so forgive me if I reserve my position so I can look at the legislation together with my colleagues in the Westminster SNP group. As I said at the start, we have opposed fox hunting in Scotland, we need to look at everything that is brought forward before parliament and look at it on its merits but I also underline the point that I made just a few moments ago. The UK government is imposing its will on Scotland with only one MP, it doesn’t even have enough elected government ministers so they are appointing placemen to the House of Lords to govern Scotland by fiat and we have to look at all of our opportunities we have to exercise our voice and our vote at Westminster and we’ll be doing it on the basis of seeing the proposals that are actually made and then making up our mind.

DM: I think we fully understand that Mr Robinson, given that you and I have not seen the proposals. I think we can be pretty sure on fox hunting that it is not going to say anything about Scotland because it’s a devolved power which you’ve just said and we have discussed a couple of times, that Scotland can make its own decisions about that. What about England and Wales then, when it revisits the issue, making its own decisions without Scottish MPs voting on it?

ANGUS ROBERTSON: Sure, I understand what you’re saying but it is no surprise the SNP is in favour of Scottish independence. I would wish that Scotland were able to make all decisions for itself but it can’t and the electorate of Scotland determined that Scotland should remain within the UK, part of the family of nations where we were told our voice mattered and our input mattered. We will look at every single proposal that is brought forward on its merits, there are a lot of people who care passionately about this issue and I understand why many of them have been getting in touch in recent days and I’d like to assure them through Sky Television that we will be looking at the case they are making very, very closely and we will do that on the basis of the legislation when it’s proposed.

DM: Okay Mr Robertson, good to talk to you, Angus Robertson there thank you very much indeed.

[russycarps]

Hey Russy, I`m sure your post is heartfelt mate and I doubt anyone on here is in favour of fox hunting. I get your passion on this subject but are you letting it cloud your judgement on what is actually happening here ?

Are the SNP " dithering over the fox hunting issue " ? I think they have been pretty clear on what they think of it and would have expected you to be supporting their stance.

Was having a vote on this in Westminster in the Tory manifesto ? Did they win the election ? Genuinely confused here as we have had months of we can`t have the tail wagging the dog, democracy etc.

She will not be " highlighting a further division between England and Scotland " as on fox hunting, that division clearly already exists as we know ( see relevant legislation ).

I sense that you guys are getting your excuses in early as you will have difficulty cheering for the SNP if / when they vote against this. Like with Trident, I suspect the SNP will do the right thing but in a race to condemn NS are we losing sight of the foxes here ?

All this talk of dithering and not making up their mind ?

Here`s what the Westminster leader of the SNP actually said ( some bits highlighted by me ) :

Interviewed by Murnaghan on Sunday :

DM: Okay, let’s ask you a specific question here, you of course used to be an SNP Member of Parliament in previous delegations that abstained on so many issues that you deemed to be affecting England and Wales only and not of Scottish interest or relevance. We’re told that’s going to change, let me put this you – a free vote coming up on fox hunting, of course a devolved issue, Scotland gets to decide what happens in that issue, is this something SNP MPs are going to vote on? It’s about England and Wales, whether the ban should continue, be changed or extended. Are you going to vote on that?

ANGUS ROBERTSON: You’d be right to point out that the SNP has of course opposed fox hunting and it’s with SNP votes that now no longer continues in Scotland. It is now mooted that this issue is going to be brought up for the rest of the United Kingdom and can I take the opportunity to thank all of the campaigners who have been getting in touch, there’s a massive lobbying operation going to try and ensure that the ban is not repealed in the rest of the UK. SNP MPs still have to consider the legislation which of course we haven’t seen so we need to see it but of course we will be looking at that closely. You do of course understand that the UK government imposes its will in Scotland without any significant legitimacy whatsoever so we are having legislation foisted on Scotland with only one MP so we have to look at all of the issues coming forward in this new parliament, following the independence referendum on its merits and we will be doing that when we see the legislation that is proposed by the government but I reiterate what I said, the votes of the SNP was that fox hunting was banned …

DM: It’s quite clear on fox hunting that Scotland can already make its own decision and has done about the future of fox hunting in Scotland. This about England and Wales, it’s a simple question, what will SNP MPs do?

ANGUS ROBERTSON: I’m sorry, have you seen the legislation?

DM: I haven’t read it through myself yet, no.

ANGUS ROBERTSON: No, neither have I so forgive me if I reserve my position so I can look at the legislation together with my colleagues in the Westminster SNP group. As I said at the start, we have opposed fox hunting in Scotland, we need to look at everything that is brought forward before parliament and look at it on its merits but I also underline the point that I made just a few moments ago. The UK government is imposing its will on Scotland with only one MP, it doesn’t even have enough elected government ministers so they are appointing placemen to the House of Lords to govern Scotland by fiat and we have to look at all of our opportunities we have to exercise our voice and our vote at Westminster and we’ll be doing it on the basis of seeing the proposals that are actually made and then making up our mind.

DM: I think we fully understand that Mr Robinson, given that you and I have not seen the proposals. I think we can be pretty sure on fox hunting that it is not going to say anything about Scotland because it’s a devolved power which you’ve just said and we have discussed a couple of times, that Scotland can make its own decisions about that. What about England and Wales then, when it revisits the issue, making its own decisions without Scottish MPs voting on it?

ANGUS ROBERTSON: Sure, I understand what you’re saying but it is no surprise the SNP is in favour of Scottish independence. I would wish that Scotland were able to make all decisions for itself but it can’t and the electorate of Scotland determined that Scotland should remain within the UK, part of the family of nations where we were told our voice mattered and our input mattered. We will look at every single proposal that is brought forward on its merits, there are a lot of people who care passionately about this issue and I understand why many of them have been getting in touch in recent days and I’d like to assure them through Sky Television that we will be looking at the case they are making very, very closely and we will do that on the basis of the legislation when it’s proposed.

DM: Okay Mr Robertson, good to talk to you, Angus Robertson there thank you very much indeed.

so it's not just st nicola that's dithering, but angus robertson too. Thanks for highlighting that point and bringing more strength to my argument, much appreciated.

As soon as they understand how the vote will go, they will make their position clear.

[Comfy Bean]

so it's not just st nicola that's dithering, but angus robertson too. Thanks for highlighting that point and bringing more strength to my argument, much appreciated.

As soon as they understand how the vote will go, they will make their position clear.

You forgot to mention the foxes

I think what the SNP Leader down your way said at the weekend was pretty clear to those who`s main concern is fox hunting and almost all of them will welcome his words ( did you read what he actually said ) ?

I note your leaving the rest of my post about democracy and manifestos to one side ?

We are on the same side on fox hunting mate. There is no " argument "...... although you are clearly trying to force through a point which has little to do with fox hunting ( see your own post about " fluffy cute foxes " and NS ) and more to do with using the Tory plans as a stick to beat the SNP with when you know fine well their overall position on fox hunting

[krisskross]

So..the SNP might have the power to stop fox hunting in England and Wales. Doing so would get them support from left-wing people in E&W but provoke the Tories saying the scottish MPs are interfering in business outside their remit. This essentially will provoke a debate on an english parliament only vote system. Is it worth the SNP getting that debate going so early or wait for something like the ECHR vote which might get a bit more english support.

[eFestivals]

So..the SNP might have the power to stop fox hunting in England and Wales. Doing so would get them support from left-wing people in E&W but provoke the Tories saying the scottish MPs are interfering in business outside their remit. This essentially will provoke a debate on an english parliament only vote system. Is it worth the SNP getting that debate going so early or wait for something like the ECHR vote which might get a bit more english support.

How can they be interfering in anything outside of their remit? They're voted as MP's into the HoC and have the right to vote on all issues there, no differently to other MPs.

Will the two pandas one Scottish Tory be abstaining? I doubt it.

You suspect the tories are playing games, and you think the SNP are dithering about how to play the tory's game. And never once does representing constituents in the national parliament come into it.

It's funny how the claims of something better and different so quickly disappear when self-interest is involved.

Edited May 19, 2015 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

The SNP are going to get blamed for just about everything for the next 5 years.

Oh well, someone has to be the scapegoat. Shame we can't blame the real enemy.

eh? Everyone knows the biggest c**ts are the torys.

[eFestivals]

The SNP are going to get blamed for just about everything for the next 5 years.

Oh well, someone has to be the scapegoat. Shame we can't blame the real enemy.

You've been perfectly happy to point out what you feel are Labour's flaws and mistakes, but you don't seem to want to allow the same process you endorse onto the things you like. Why is that?

Have you swallowed the myth-ers manual too, where the SNP are so perfect they're beyond fair and reasonable comment?

[eFestivals]

PS ... i love the way that Robertson says he'#d like to "assure them through Sky Television that we will be looking at the case".

That sounds to me like Murdoch's Sky is now the official channel for SNP propaganda.

I wonder why the SNP love the things Murdoch does so very much?

[feral chile]

eh? Everyone knows the biggest c**ts are the torys.

Trouble is, we expect it from them, so we don't expect any better. Then we get disproportionately angry and disappointed when left wing parties show any kind of self interest.

[russycarps]

Trouble is, we expect it from them, so we don't expect any better. Then we get disproportionately angry and disappointed when left wing parties show any kind of self interest.

Spot on (apart from suggesting the snp are left wing....). The torys are what they are. They want to bring back fox hunting. Fair enough, I disagree with them but I respect their right to an opinion and for them to act accordingly. We know where we stand with them.

The snp however, claim to be anti-fox hunting but wont commit to voting against it until they have figured out how they can maximise their political gain.

Yes they are better than the tories, but there is only the width of one of nicolas pubes between them.

Edited May 19, 2015 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

Then we get disproportionately angry and disappointed when left wing parties show any kind of self interest.

Labour has just been destroyed in Scotland, supposedly on this basis.

When the SNP get a free pass and no equal and fair comparison it's more than a little galling.

Just imagine what SNP-ers would be saying about Labour if they'd been fully-caught in Murdoch's pay - as happened with Salmond, where he gets a free pass.

Edited May 19, 2015 by eFestivals

[gary1979666]

eh? Everyone knows the biggest c**ts are the torys.

I'm so big, you won't even touch the sides!

[russycarps]

I'm so big, you won't even touch the sides!

thatll be all the fox flesh you have been gorging on....

[gary1979666]

thatll be all the fox flesh you have been gorging on....

You should try a McFoxy With Cheese - it's fantastic (mr fox)

Though have to question if overeating causes an increased diameter or the more flesh would mean an increase likelihood of touching the sides? Am I just overthinking this insult?

[LJS]

Labour has just been destroyed in Scotland, supposedly on this basis.

When the SNP get a free pass and no equal and fair comparison it's more than a little galling.

Just imagine what SNP-ers would be saying about Labour if they'd been fully-caught in Murdoch's pay - as happened with Salmond, where he gets a free pass.

I understood eck had some meetings with Rupert. I hadn't heard of money changing hands. Have you uncovered important new evidence?

[LJS]

So please do give us the low-down of why the SNP can't make up their mind....?

I reckon Russy has nailed it.

The duplicitousness shines thru at all moments, unless you've swallowed the myth manual.

what's she dithering about then, trying to decide if she thinks fluffy foxes are cute or not?

She's dithering, If that's an accurate description because to vote on a bill that doesn't effect Scotland would mean changing their policy on what they do & don't vote on at Westminster. Their practice of not voting on English only matters is perfectly logical, reasonable and has been pretty uncontroversial for years. So why won't they come straight out & say they will abstain?

Two reasons, I think.

1: they may be hoping that when they see the bill there will be something in it that they can argue impacts on Scotland - a bit of a long shot in my view but clearly a situation where they can vote against hunting whilst retaining their position on English laws is the best outcome for them.

2: They're not daft - they will be well aware of the potential adverse impact of "appearing" to condone hunting. They would of course be doing no such thing but, as you 2 have clearly demonstrated, there will be no shortage of numpties accusing them of that.and of course their vastly increased number of MP's coupled with a fairly tight Tory majority may mean this situation will arise again. Might it be worth them reconsidering their general stance?

Of that's all a bit academic because if they did vote down a hunting bill, that would simply bring the imposition of EVEL closer & in a form that would allow the Tories to hunt to their heartless hearts' content.

Sadly, you guys see each & every issue as an opportunity to bash the SNP so I don't expect any common sense from either of you.

[viberunner]

So..the SNP might have the power to stop fox hunting in England and Wales. Doing so would get them support from left-wing people in E&W but provoke the Tories saying the scottish MPs are interfering in business outside their remit. This essentially will provoke a debate on an english parliament only vote system. Is it worth the SNP getting that debate going so early or wait for something like the ECHR vote which might get a bit more english support.

Pretty much.

They'll be damned as vote-rigging hypocrites if they vote against...

And they'll be damned as having gouged out the eyes of puppies if they abstain.

[eFestivals]

I understood eck had some meetings with Rupert. I hadn't heard of money changing hands. Have you uncovered important new evidence?

Salmond broke the ministerial code.

He offered to do Murdoch's bidding.

He's not a true Scot tho ( ), as he didn't get to extract a penny for his services to Murdoch.

At least, we don't think he did. We don't actually know. We've only seen the emails that Salmond sent to Murdoch offering to be corrupt.

I guess we'll have to wait until Salmond reveals himself as saintly and innocent, by him revealing the other half of the emails.

I wonder why he's not done it, being so innocent and wanting to defend himself from proven corruption?

Edited May 20, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

She's dithering,

Is that because she can't work out what her pledge means to not vote on English-only matters?

Or is it because she can't work out what her pledge means to play a full part in UK politics?

Or is it because she'll say anything at all, even conflicting things, to mug any hard-of-thinking-not-really-paying-attention suckers into voting for her?

[eFestivals]

In rather shocking news, four LibDems have turned down seats in the Lords.

Perhaps it's not surprising that St Vince is one of them.

More surprising is David Laws and Simon Hughes turning them down.

But Danny Alexander? I guess that has a few Scots choking, and cybernats everywhere are finding out they were wrong for once ( ).

Edited May 20, 2015 by eFestivals

[viberunner]

But Danny Alexander? I guess that has a few Scots choking, and cybernats everywhere are finding out they were wrong for once ( ).

How were we wrong? These ghastly quislings posed as progressives for years - decades - and for the first shot of power enabled one of the most regressive governments ever.

And now they are no more. Perhaps for a generation. Perhaps that's it.

They won't be missed. (Chorus: who won't be missed?)

[viberunner]

Is that because she can't work out what her pledge means to not vote on English-only matters?

Or is it because she can't work out what her pledge means to play a full part in UK politics?

Or is it because she'll say anything at all, even conflicting things, to mug any hard-of-thinking-not-really-paying-attention suckers into voting for her?

Or is it you have no idea and you're don't like not feeling "in the loop"?

[eFestivals]

How were we wrong?

oh, it's you. I can't say I'm surprised.

How were we wrong?

so the myth manual says, Danny Alexander should be getting measured for his ermine about now.

These ghastly quislings posed as progressives for years - decades - and for the first shot of power enabled one of the most regressive governments ever.

I agree with very little of the choices the LibDems made about coalition, but you're ignoring the part where they reigned in the tories and made the last govt less evil than it might have otherwise been.

It could have been just like now.

And now they are no more. Perhaps for a generation. Perhaps that's it.

They won't be missed. (Chorus: who won't be missed?)

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Parties come and go.

Just 60 years ago, Scotland voted in a majority for Tory & Unionist Party MPs, the last time that any part of the UK voted as a majority for any party. The SNP have yet to manage that.

I'm starting to see plenty of Scottish voices - SNP supporters - criticising the SNP in one way or other, far from impressed with various antics of theirs. Maybe they'll be the next party about whom lots of people will say "they won't be missed".

Me, I'm less worried about who the party might be than I am having a party that can be a unitedopposition to the tories. Self-interested splitters screaming me-me-me like a good little Thatcherite will never be that.

Edited May 20, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Or is it you have no idea and you're don't like not feeling "in the loop"?

I have no idea, you have no idea, even Sturgeon doesn't have an idea.

So if you're believing yourself to be in the loop, I can only guess that's the noose you're hanging yourself with by talking bollocks.

[eFestivals]

So Tristam Hunt has bottled stanbding himself, but has - unsurprisingly - backed Liz Kendall.

Kendall is Blair's choice. Hunt is Mandelson's choice, but as ever Mandelson has deferred to Blair.

To be fair, from a Labour Party insider's view (not necessarily the public's view), Kendall is probably the right choice at this moment in time.

The problem is that she's not standing for election today but in 5 years time, and the political narrative could be very different when that comes around and leave Labour out in the cold. Again.

I'd much prefer a 'holding' temporary leader that everyone could get behind while they work out what's what and what they need to be saying in 5 years time.

Edited May 20, 2015 by eFestivals