General Election 2015

[viberunner]

care to show me the oppressive regime in Scotland?

[viberunner]

behave, comparing scotland to places that experience genuine oppression. What a shameful post.

No.

He said there was an undeniable link between nationalism and racism.

Those cases prove otherwise.

[lost]

I really don't get the Snp position. Snp supporters think England and Scotland are too different to maintain a political and economic union? ukip supporters think Britain and some parts of Europe are too different to maintain a political and economic union?

I really don't see what the difference is?

Also how does the small matter of Germany generally being more fiscally conservative and enforcing smaller deficits than Westminster fit in with the snps anti austerity message?

[LondonTom]

She knows enough about herself that age 20 is is gay and open about it, as she said "I'm not out as I've never been in". A lot of gay people are still struggling with admitting that (be it publicly or to themselves) well into their 30s and 40s.

She also comes from a "normal" background rather than a high affluent privileged background. So there's that.

This may be a shock up in Scotland, but there are plenty of 20 year olds and younger who are gay and open about it in England. This isn't a great shock anymore and makes them no more fit to be an MP than anyone else.

Also do you not think the older people, might have brought up when being gay was seen as less socially aceptable than it is now and might be a reason why they struggle with coming out?

Ah that place, where no Scotish person has ever set foot. Certainly no representation, before we even begin to think about how one day there might be a Scotish primeminister.

Edited May 22, 2015 by LondonTom

[russycarps]

it's a fantastic looking building though isnt it.

[viberunner]

I really don't get the Snp position. Snp supporters think England and Scotland are too different to maintain a political and economic union? ukip supporters think Britain and some parts of Europe are too different to maintain a political and economic union?

I really don't see what the difference is?

UKIP dislike EU legislation and think the UK would do better as an independent country outside of the EU framework, doing the likes of negotiating direct trade deals with the US, EU, etc.

The SNP think they'd be better off in the EU but not part of the UK. That would give them, for example, a direct Scottish minister to the EU Scotland's fishing interests, agriculture, economy, etc.

So the similarities, though they can be superficially stated, aren't really the same.

The "real-life differences" are important.

I mean, the phrase "Nelson Mandela ran a paramilitary organisation and had people killed on his orders, and so too Al Capone ran a paramilitary organisation and had people killed on his orders" is factually true. So through mere phrasing we can make them appear similar, but surely the "real life differences" between them are more important than glib sophistic comparisons?

Edited May 22, 2015 by viberunner

[gary1979666]

it's a fantastic looking building though isnt it.

I normally see it and tend to think of the politicians, but youre right. It is pretty amazing when you take the contents away.

[viberunner]

This may be a shock up in Scotland, but there are plenty of 20 year olds and younger who are gay and open about it in England. This isn't a great shock anymore and makes them no more fit to be an MP than anyone else.

But surely it doesn't make them any less fit either?

If England wants to elect a 20 year old gay person then I don't have a problem with it.

But, for some reason, many English people are taking umbrage that Scotland has.

It's nice that you appear to care about Paisley West so much... seemingly now the most important pace in England.

Edited May 22, 2015 by viberunner

[lost]

UKIP dislike EU legislation and think the UK would do better as an independent country outside of the EU framework, doing the likes of negotiating direct trade deals with the US, EU, etc.

The SNP think they'd be better off in the EU but not part of the UK. That would give them, for example, a direct Scottish minister to the EU Scotland's fishing interests, agriculture, economy, etc.

So the similarities, though they can be superficially stated, aren't really the same.

The "real-life differences" are important.

I mean, the phrase "Nelson Mandela ran a paramilitary organisation and had people killed on his orders, and so too Al Capone ran a paramilitary organisation and had people killed on his orders" is factually true. So through mere phrasing we can make them appear similar, but surely the "real life differences" between them are more important than glib sophistic comparisons?

Well I actually meant from the point they are both valid opinions but being treat completely differently by Snp supporters. I also meant with the second point that some policies are contradictory.. They think they can't get what they want from Westminster but the EU will act in a completely different fashion?

I don't know what the end game is.. Maybe an indy Scotland inside the EU with the rest of Britain outside? Scotland then being allowed by both the UK and EU to run large deficits in a currency controlled by a central bank outside the EU? surely there must be one eye on more likely outcomes such as Scotland being more insignificant in the EU than in Britain without ruk and so being tied to the ecb financial stability pact

[eFestivals]

SNP dislike UK legislation and think Scotland would do better as an independent country outside of the UK framework, doing the likes of negotiating direct trade deals with the US, EU, etc.

UKIP think they'd be better off in the UK but not part of the EU. That would give them, for example, a direct UK minister to the UK fishing interests, agriculture, economy, etc.

So the similarities, though they can be superficially stated, aren't really the same.

yeah, nothing like the same at all.

(did you see what i did there?)

Or does it pass you by that the arguments are identical?

The country's problem is all the fault of those horrid outsiders and if we could only get rid of them a glorious future is ours.

[eFestivals]

yeah, because the opposed always get given a free vote where they vote to keep their oppressor.

Myth is all you have. Independence is what you don't have.

As proven by the inability of those independently=minded Scots to create the national institutions Scotland will need when independent, or a currency, or even the political party nutters like you keep on telling me that Scotland should have.

It's all the fault of the nasty nasty racists in England that stop people in Scotland doing things independently of England, and nothing to do with twats that can't get off their own arses to independently achieve even some of the easy things they say they want to do independently.

No.

He said there was an undeniable link between nationalism and racism.

Those cases prove otherwise.

you prove it true, but don't let personal experiences ruin your arguments.

[feral chile]

But surely it doesn't make them any less fit either?

If England wants to elect a 20 year old gay person then I don't have a problem with it.

But, for some reason, many English people are taking umbrage that Scotland has.

It's nice that you appear to care about Paisley West so much... seemingly now the most important pace in England.

Agreed, I thought the whole point of a democracy was that everyone should be represented, including the young.

If we have a government consisting only of middle aged, middle class corporate types, we won't have differing perspectives being considered.

Lots of young people don't vote, I'm sure part of that is the public perception of politicians.

Edited May 22, 2015 by feral chile

[viberunner]

They think they can't get what they want from Westminster but the EU will act in a completely different fashion?

I don't know what the end game is.. Maybe an indy Scotland inside the EU with the rest of Britain outside?

That's one possible outcome.

One of the problems is currently we're in the EU anyway, but we have to lobby Westminster to lobby the EU on our behalf, and of course Westminster is preoccupied with the much larger English constituency. It is certainly felt that on some issue, especially fishing, the UK government hasn't really given much effort.

At least under direct EU membership we can have people dedicated full-time to representing Scotland's interest rather than a Chinese Whispers via Westminster.

It's all the fault of the nasty nasty racists in England that stop people in Scotland doing things independently of England, and nothing to do with twats that can't get off their own arses to independently achieve even some of the easy things they say they want to do independently. you prove it true, but don't let personal experiences ruin your arguments.

I didn't say the first highlighted thing (and no reasonable interpretation could argue otherwise, though I would never dream of accusing you of being reasonable) and the second thing... touchy after the failed Murdoch thing?

One of the greatest assets in a future independence referendum would be to print out this entire thread and post it to every voter in Scotland.

Edited May 22, 2015 by viberunner

[russycarps]

But surely it doesn't make them any less fit either?

If England wants to elect a 20 year old gay person then I don't have a problem with it.

But, for some reason, many English people are taking umbrage that Scotland has.

It's nice that you appear to care about Paisley West so much... seemingly now the most important pace in England.

It's nothing to do with her belonging to the snp. If she was tory, labour, ukip whatever the reaction would be the same.

If the country was run by 20 year old's we'd be doomed. It's a joke. She's a joke. She knows nothing.

[eFestivals]

Agreed, I thought the whole point of a democracy was that everyone should be represented, including the young.

If we have a government consisting only of middle aged, middle class corporate types, we won't have differing perspectives being considered.

Lots of young people don't vote, I'm sure part of that is the public perception of politicians.

It wasn't the fact that they'd elected someone so young that I was commenting on.

It was that the person who's been elected has many of the same 'faults' for which other politicians are condemned by the same sorts of people as elected her.

('faults' is in quotes, because they're not necessarily the 'faults' that are claimed of them).

If those people put up their hands to those and said "yep, fair enough, but there are specific qualities too" i'd have less issue with it - tho those people probably wouldn't accept a similar list of qualities for those they condemn for those 'faults'.

But as you've got to see, not even that happens. There is only good about her, and what were previously deemed faults are lauded as qualities just by the fact of the party she's for.

Welcome to the world of the nationalists. This is how it works. Double standards and duplicity, and a mythical fact-free world.

[eFestivals]

I didn't say the first highlighted thing (and no reasonable interpretation could argue otherwise, though I would never dream of accusing you of being reasonable) and the second thing... touchy after the failed Murdoch thing?

I'm very happy for you to think that's what's going on.

One of the greatest assets in a future independence referendum would be to print out this entire thread and post it to every voter in Scotland.

yeah, cos i'm so fucking nasty not wanting you to drive your countrymen into poverty.

You don't save yourself from tory austerity by giving yourself something much worse.

Go and have a read of GERS. Go and ask St Nicola why she doesn't want Scotland to be quickly autonomous after all.

FFS.

Meanwhile, I see you've gone for the pathetic, but you have no comment on why independently-minded Scots are not doing for themselves many of necessary thing they'll need for their dream future (and which are not a waste of time even if you never get there).

[kaosmark2]

"Ed Miliband, David Cameron and Nick Clegg have all met Rebekah Brooks more often in one year — including at the oyster and champagne garden parties — than Alex Salmond has in four years."

I am not defending Salmonds relationship with, or admiration for, Murdoch but I suspect the last part of the quote above may also be true

So what you're saying is, that meeting the subordinate who is an official part of the press and will conduct far more mild deals, is worse than meeting the head honcho?

[kaosmark2]

Salmond also said "I'm innocent". And so did Greville Janner.

> exactly the same approach as we take towards all employers

then isn't it funny that he's not producing evidence of doing the same things for other employers? in fact, the evidence proves beyond all doubt he doesn't do the same for other - often bigger - employers.

Funny, Salmond isn't meeting those responsible for trident renewal and encouraging their business in Scotland. They're a much bigger employer in Scotland than Newscorp.

[kaosmark2]

I will be shocked if Mhairi Black proves half the politician Douglas Alexander is. Had a lot of time and respect for him, but he was guilty of the crime of wearing red.

[gary1979666]

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/05/17/left-or-right-labour/

Some interesting polling info on which part of the spectrum Labour should be aiming for.

[pink_triangle]

I find it too hard to get excited about a 20 year old being elected, she is one in 650 and its not a bigvdeal. The reality is that her sexuality and age probably were of little relevance when people voted, I could have stood with an snp rosette and won.

[russycarps]

I find it too hard to get excited about a 20 year old being elected, she is one in 650 and its not a bigvdeal. The reality is that her sexuality and age probably were of little relevance when people voted, I could have stood with an snp rosette and won.

it's a big deal when on the one hand people say labour is full of politicians with no real-world experience, then they vote for a 20 year old with no real-world experience, and also a severe lack of actual life experience.

It's hypocritical, and laughable.

[krisskross]

So there was a memo and Nic Sturgoen did want Cameron as PM... Funny world!

[kipper64]

Carmichael leaked it, nice for him to come clean after re-election! He admitted as well it is not a correct statement as well. Jeremy Haywood says he thinks it is correct cause the civil servent who wrote it is usually reliable however they have also admitted it might have been "lost in translation" which is a nice cover either way.

[pink_triangle]

it's a big deal when on the one hand people say labour is full of politicians with no real-world experience, then they vote for a 20 year old with no real-world experience, and also a severe lack of actual life experience.

It's hypocritical, and laughable.

Oh it's hypocritical, but find my a political party that isn't.