General Election 2015

[LJS]

The S.Office civil servant accurately recorded what he was told.

He added a piece to the memo saying he doubted that the conversation had taken place in the exact way he was told it.

What needs answering is why the French Consul General thought the conversation had happened in the way he told the S.Office.

Clearly, the French Consul General had been told it had happened much in the way he reported it, which means the French Ambassador believed the conversation had been saying (tho perhaps not with explicic words) that Sturgeon felt Miliband was unsuitable for PM and Sturgeoin wanted Cameron to win.

So why did the French Ambassador think that's what Sturgeon had been hinting at?

Did he invent it? Or had Sturgeon been making those suggestions.

Sturgeon has no interest in knowing, which is rather odd.

Apparently, it's only of interest that Carmichael was lying, but there's no interest in the other clear lies that happened within the whole thing. How odd.

Anyone might conclude that Sturgon doesn't want anyone to look too closely.

And she's certainly been happy to ignore the conclusions of the official report which says the memo was recorded accurately, to make a comment suggesting that it wasn't - the exact opposite of the truth.

Carmichael's lies bad, SNP lies good.

(I've noticed phrases like that are getting popular ... tho not quite like that one ).

You set great store on the statement that it was 'recorded accurately."

Leaving aside the point that there is no way of knowing that it was recorded accurately unless they have a recording of the phone call, the civil servant who wrote the memo casts doubt himself on its a accuracy.

So, the two people who had the conversation have stated the memo is inaccurate. The French official who observed the conversation & informed the Scottish Office civil servant haa said it is inaccurate. The civil servant who wrote the memo cast doubts on its accuracy. The poiitician who leaked it says it was inaccurate.

Odd one out round.

Your 4 are. The French Ambassador, the French consul. Neil from efest & Alistair Carmichael.

Yes you guessed it, the odd one out is Neil.

The other 3 know the memo is bollocks, while Neil just talks bollocks.

Edit: oh & I checked exactly what the report said:

"The Cabinet Secretary has concluded that there is no reason to doubt that he recorded accurately what he thought he had heard."

Which is not quite as certain as you said it was.

Now, let it go & let's move on.

Edited May 23, 2015 by LJS

[eFestivals]

You set great store on the statement that it was 'recorded accurately."

It's what the official investigation found - different to what Sturgeon claimed yesterday (but it's only Carmichael's lies that are bad ).

Given that the civil servant went to the trouble of adding a note to say he didn't believe Sturgeon had spoken in such explicit words, that also strongly suggests it was accurately recorded.

Leaving aside the point that there is no way of knowing that it was recorded accurately unless they have a recording of the phone call, the civil servant who wrote the memo casts doubt himself on its a accuracy.

the official report seems to suggest there was no audio recording (which rather surprises me, tho I guess storing all calls would be impossible on a practical basis).

the civil servant who wrote the memo casts doubt himself on its a accuracy.

No. He doesn't cast doubt on his own recording within the memo of what he was told.

He casts doubts on the specifics of what he was told.

No one is doubting that he was told what he recorded in the memo.

The French have never stated he wasn't told what he recorded as being told.

There is not a jot with which to doubt that the memo was accurately recorded.

So, the two people who had the conversation have stated the memo is inaccurate.

Wrong.

The two people who had the conversation have said the conversation did not have those things said, a different thing to the memo being accurate for what the French Consul General said to the S.Office which is in the memo.

The French official who observed the conversation & informed the Scottish Office civil servant haa said it is inaccurate. The civil servant who wrote the memo cast doubts on its accuracy. The poiitician who leaked it says it was inaccurate.

Factually wrong, and factually wrong!

The French Consul General (the guy who informed the SO) was not at the meeting. He was briefed afterwards about the meeting by the French Ambassador.

The French Consul General has not commented about what he told the SO.

The civil servant who wrote the memo casts no doubt at all on his own recording of what he was told.

The civil servant who wrote the memo casts doubt only on the specifics of the words that might have been used (because he knows politicians and diplomats are not normaily so indiscrete).

Leaving aside the point that there is no way of knowing that it was recorded accurately unless they have a recording of the phone call, the civil servant who wrote the memo casts doubt himself on its a accuracy.

your ability to discern is absolutely dreadful.

The memo was accurately recorded.

Any error in what was recorded is the doing of the French, via what they told the Scottish Office.

Now, did the French invent all parts of it?

Or was there was a conversation which touched on who Sturgeon wanted to win and what she thought of Miliband?

It's exceedingly likely to be the 2nd of those.

So either the French Ambassador completely misunderstood what Sturgeon was getting at, or the French Ambassador completely understood what Sturgeon was getting at.

Take your pick.

But do consider....

1. what result was the best result for the SNP's long-term political aims towards their one and only principle.

2. what Sturgeon's opinion of Miliband as PM might be.

It does take a bit more brain power than you;'vce used to-date tho. Do you think you can manage that?

[LJS]

The French consul General was present at the meeting & he has stated the memo was inaccurate.

https://twitter.com/severincarrell/status/584113809633239040

[eFestivals]

The French consul General was present at the meeting & he has stated the memo was inaccurate.

https://twitter.com/severincarrell/status/584113809633239040

wow, there's a first, a snipper crediting Severin with telling the truth.

I might be confused over job titles and who did what. Let me do some do some digging and I'll get back to you.

[LJS]

wow, there's a first, a snipper crediting Severin with telling the truth.

I might be confused over job titles and who did what. Let me do some do some digging and I'll get back to you.

You may find this helpful

http://aidankerr.com/2015/04/04/frenchgate-full-round-up/

& this

"The row was triggered after an account of a February meeting between Sturgeon and Sylvie Bermann, France's ambassador to the UK, was leaked to the Daily Telegraph.

The memo was written by an unnamed UK government official and was based on a conversation with Coffinier, who had attended the meeting."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/french-diplomat-i-told-friend-in-scotland-office-about-sturgeon-meeting.122423565

[LJS]

Now that we have established beyond reasonable doubt that there is no reason to believe anything contained in the memo

A number if observations seem relevant.

Having read the Cabinet Office statement:

Following the leak of a Scotland Office memorandum that formed the basis of a story in the Daily Telegraph on 3 April, the Cabinet Secretary instigated a Cabinet Office-led leak inquiry to establish how this memo came to be written and how it got into the public domain. The inquiry process is now complete.

The memo

The investigation team interviewed the civil servant in the Scotland Office who produced the memo. He confirmed under questioning that he believed that the memo was an accurate record of the conversation that took place between him and the French Consul General, and highlighted that the memo had stated that part of the conversation between the French Ambassador and the First Minister might well have been “lost in translation”.

Senior officials who have worked with him say that he is reliable and has no history of inaccurate reporting, impropriety or security lapses. The Cabinet Secretary has concluded that there is no reason to doubt that he recorded accurately what he thought he had heard. There is no evidence of any political motivation or ‘dirty tricks’.

The leak

In investigating the source of the leak, the investigation team searched all relevant official phone records, emails and print logs. Those who had access to the memo were asked to complete a questionnaire on what they did with the memo when they received it. They were then interviewed.

The investigation established the following facts:

• an official mobile phone was used to make telephone calls to one of the authors of the Daily Telegraph story. This phone was held by Euan Roddin, previously Special Adviser to the then Secretary of State for Scotland, Alistair Carmichael
• Mr Roddin confirmed that he provided a copy of the Scotland Office memo to a Daily Telegraph journalist on 1 April 2015, and discussed the memo with the journalist on a number of occasions. He told the investigation team that he acted in what he saw as the public interest and that in his view the public needed to be aware of the position attributed to the First Minister
• Alistair Carmichael confirmed that he had been asked by Mr Roddin for his view of the possibility of sharing the memo with the press. Mr Carmichael agreed that this should occur. He recognises that, as a Secretary of State, he was responsible for his own conduct and that of his Special Adviser. He could and should have stopped the sharing of the memo and accordingly accepts responsibility for what occurred
• no-one else had any involvement in the leaking of the memo

The investigation team has therefore concluded that Mr Roddin, with the assent of Mr Carmichael in the circumstances described above, was the direct source of the Daily Telegraph story. The Cabinet Secretary has accepted their findings in full. Mr Carmichael and Mr Roddin have also accepted the conclusions.

Neither Mr Carmichael nor Mr Roddin will take their severance pay.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scotland-office-memorandum-leak-cabinet-office-inquiry-statement

How amateurish was this? Carmichael's spad used an official mobile phone to tell the Telegraph about the memo. Really? I think it might have worth nipping down to ASDA & buying a £10 payg phone which you could then bin!

Why did the enquiry take so long? There looks like about 2 days work there at the most. Could it have been anything to do with there being an election campaign on the go?

Would Carmichael have been blamed if he had still been a minister? Ministers virtually never get the blame for leaks. It's always a SPAD or a civil servant. Of course now he is no longer in Government he is expendable.

Would he have held his seat if his actions had been known before the election? Even without the knowledge of his deceit he saw his majority fall from 9,928 to 817.

Edited May 23, 2015 by LJS

[feral chile]

Would Purdah come into play with this? If so, timing is everything.

[The Nal]

Thats a YES in Ireland for gay marriage!

[feral chile]

Thats a YES in Ireland for gay marriage!

Brilliant news

[LJS]

Brilliant news

Indeed :)

[viberunner]

Good for IRELAND

Next stop: abortion rights.

[viberunner]

Nicola Sturgeon memo 'recorded accurately', official inquiry finds

Oh dear.

Marxist backs Civil Service Inquiry into Civil Servant? (Despite everyone at the meeting saying something else).

Oh dear indeed. Che would be most disappointed in you meladdo.

[feral chile]

That's not quite what he said, and you need to read the official report which says the memo was accurately recorded.

Nicola Sturgeon memo 'recorded accurately', official inquiry finds

Oh dear.

within the memo linked from your link:

I have to admit that I’m not sure that the FM’s tongue would be quite so loose on that kind of thing in a meeting like that, so it might well be a case of something being lost in translation.

So - he accurately recorded the hearsay he was given. And formally raised doubts about the hearsay's accuracy.

So yes, the memo accurately states that it's likely to be bullshit.

Edited May 23, 2015 by feral chile

[kipper64]

I get the impression it's easier for the civil servants/government involved to say it's probably right with the caveat of maybe it was lost in translation than admit it was fabricated for political gain as that would likely be a much bigger scandal that couldn't be brushed aside so easily. If the civil servent is as trusted and effective at their job as heywood has stated then why all the probablys and stating it might have been lost in translation etc...

Regardless of how legit it is the fact it was leaked and the fact that Carmichael is having no action against him despite lying about being involved pre election is ridiculous. I wonder if the people of Orkney and Shetland who narrowly voted for him would have done so if he had come clean before 7th may.

[feral chile]

I get the impression it's easier for the civil servants/government involved to say it's probably right with the caveat of maybe it was lost in translation than admit it was fabricated for political gain as that would likely be a much bigger scandal that couldn't be brushed aside so easily. If the civil servent is as trusted and effective at their job as heywood has stated then why all the probablys and stating it might have been lost in translation etc...

Regardless of how legit it is the fact it was leaked and the fact that Carmichael is having no action against him despite lying about being involved pre election is ridiculous. I wonder if the people of Orkney and Shetland who narrowly voted for him would have done so if he had come clean before 7th may.

yes, exactly, they can state that there indeed was a memo and the memo was leaked exactly as it was. that says nothing of why it was written and why it was leaked, or of the accuracy of the contents of it.

[Stash]

..but I think us snippers, having been proved right, again...

What exactly has anyone been proven right on. The person responsible for leaking a genuine Scotland Office memo has admitted to it, nothing else.

[Comfy Bean]

Nicola sturgeon did not say she wanted dave to be pm.

In fact she went on live TV many many times and clearly stated the opposite. She was in step with the vast vast majority of people in Scotland.

[Stash]

Labour is. It's full of Oxford PPE clones who went to fee paying schools (or state schools in the sort of catchment areas that cost a million quid to get in).

And you know it. It's why Scotland didn't vote for them and it's why England didn't agree to vote for them.

And booing and weeping that a wee roughly lassie from Paisley could beat the incumbent won't change it.

I can's quite work out what the PPE is short for, but I assume public/private education??

Are you trying to suggest that the reason Scotland didn't vote for Labour was because the house price in some southern UK constituencies is too high and that in some of those constituencies a labour candidate might or might not have been elected?

Or are we deflecting from a valid point that a young and inexperienced person might have been elected as an MP who might or mighht not add a valuable contribution to her constituents?

[Comfy Bean]

Her constituents?

You mean the ones who voted for her.

[kaosmark2]

I can's quite work out what the PPE is short for, but I assume public/private education??

Are you trying to suggest that the reason Scotland didn't vote for Labour was because the house price in some southern UK constituencies is too high and that in some of those constituencies a labour candidate might or might not have been elected?

Or are we deflecting from a valid point that a young and inexperienced person might have been elected as an MP who might or mighht not add a valuable contribution to her constituents?

PPE is politics, philosophy and economics. It's a course offered at Oxford (and a few other unis) that has a reputation for being the choice of professional politicians.

[Stash]

Her constituents?

You mean the ones who voted for her.

Not my point, but did you really not know that a constituent is anyone in the electoral district, regardless of who they voted for?

[LJS]

What exactly has anyone been proven right on. The person responsible for leaking a genuine Scotland Office memo has admitted to it, nothing else.

Pay attention.

[Comfy Bean]

Yes. I was aware of that. Yes.

[Stash]

Yes. I was aware of that. Yes.

Funny you asked then!

[Stash]

Pay attention.

The only sensible conclusion is that the investigation has proven;

1. Unnamed Scottish Office official accurately recorded conversation between him/her and the French consul-general

2. Former Scottish minister leaked accurate memo to press (naughty boy)

3. Scottish entry to Eurovision in hiding as the referendum result was not actually for secession

4. French ambassador may or may not have heard Nicola Sturgeons deepest held beliefs, but regardless what is actually reported, avid snippers will make it up to fit their own needs.