General Election 2015

[LJS]

Then read the feckin' policies and discover you're mugging yourself - and your kids.

I'm well aware of the Labour party's policies. I am also well aware of their record.

I've just plowed thru endless "red tories" comments elsewhere, where endless Scots say that there's no difference between Labour and the tories because they both intend to continue austerity.

I'm not a great fan of the "red tory" brigade & it's not a phrase you will have heard me use. You will however have heard me regularly lament Labour's seemingly relentless drift to the right over the past 35 years. Ed may be pulling it back somewhat but it's still way to the right of what the Labour Party is meant to be.

And yet all austerity is not the same, unless a 5% cut equals a 10% cut. And all austerity is not the same, when some reduce the impact on the poor by making the rich pay more.

And "spend more" sounds great, but someone always has to pay in the end ... and with the SNP's version it's still the poor that pay, with today's adults making their kids pay. They won't tax the rich. In fact, all they'll do is spend, and let the rich keep on running away with the money including that extra spend.

So, to sum up, there are different ideas on how fast we reduce the deficit & how we fund that reduction. i agree with you that Labour's plans are better than the Tories. But I happen to believe that Labour plans tweaked by the SNP are even better. But that is just my opinion. I don't claim to be the fountain of all knowledge & I am not arrogant enough to accuse you of being an idiot because you believe something different.

And because the SNP won't tax the rich, it turns out that their "spend more" is much the same as Labour's austerity.

The SNP cannot tax anyone in the UK because they can't form a government on their own.

And so by supporting the SNP you're choosing to indebt your kids so that the rich can keep on running away with the money.

Could you please stop accusing me of supporting the SNP. When I have decided who to vote for, I rpomise you'll be the first to know & If I decide to vote SNP, I will be happy to defend that decision.

You do know that around 8% of govt revenues are now given away to the bankers as a freebie, don#t ypou? And yo9u think giving them a bigger freebie is a good idea? To increase the "bankers tax" YOU pay from 8% to 10%. Smart move - NOT!!!

Even if the deficit is eliminated in the next parliament (& that is a big if) we will still be saddled with a humungous national deb - whoever is in power we are going to be paying that off for years, probably decades. So like it or not the banksters are getting that money for years - probably for the rest of our lives in fact. Let's not base our whole economic policy around getting the debt paid off as soon as possible. Let's take a more balanced view.

We only get to stop the bankers running away with the money by stopping giving them free cash. So we tax the rich to pay the rich off, and then stop playing the game where only they win.

Or vote SNP instead, and keep on giving those bankers free money, and more money.

Vote SNP, vote poorer.

You are well aware that I am in favour of increased taxation for the rich - are you suggesting the SNP would veto any such taxation as their cost for a deal?

Edited March 7, 2015 by LJS

[LJS]

Just for fun since it`s the weekend

With it looking unlikely that one party will get over the line, what would be your preference between an SNP backed Labour Govt against a Tory / Labour arrangement ?

I would go with Labour backed by the SNP to keep the Tories out. I realise the dangers of this but in my view this would be less damaging ( for Labour ) than a deal with Dave. I know the potential of Salmond being deputy PM would push some on here over the edge ( especially with his new look ) but leaving that to one side, would be interested in anyones views.

http://news.sky.com/story/1440371/tory-labour-grand-coalition-to-keep-union

Salmond is highly unlikely to be depute PM because it is highly unlikely there will be a formal coalition. I don't believe that would be in either party's interests.

As for my preference, of course it would be Lab/SNP... surely the "Best of Both Worlds"

I cannot believe Labour would serious consideration to a deal of any sort with the Tories. They would be in serious danger of losing vast swathes of the north of England and could forget any chance of regaining their lost support in Scotland.

[eFestivals]

You realise that up my way we`ve had one of their number urging folks to vote Tory in a bid to keep the SNP out.

yep, and I also realise that up your way you've had an awful lot of yes-ers lying about just how much of that "urging" has gone on. It's happened, but it's not the event you present it as.

Is it any more meaningful than SNP councillors burning the Smith Commission report? Nope, and yes-ers everywhere told the world that meant nothing.

More worrying talk about this " grand alliance " possibility today.

That's one of the possibilities that Scotland not voting Labour but wanting Labour can bring about.

It's in your hands to stop it and get the best result for yourself and your countymen. Why don't you want the best result for you and your countrymen?

[eFestivals]

ah the grand alliance!... Vote Labour get Tory

a possible consequence of those who'll vote anti-Labour when wanting Labour.

But hey, rinse your hands of the consequences you might cause just as you've rinsed your mind of policies.

[eFestivals]

Just for fun since it`s the weekend

With it looking unlikely that one party will get over the line, what would be your preference between an SNP backed Labour Govt against a Tory / Labour arrangement ?

I would go with Labour backed by the SNP to keep the Tories out. I realise the dangers of this but in my view this would be less damaging ( for Labour ) than a deal with Dave. I know the potential of Salmond being deputy PM would push some on here over the edge ( especially with his new look ) but leaving that to one side, would be interested in anyones views.

http://news.sky.com/story/1440371/tory-labour-grand-coalition-to-keep-union

you can go with whatever scenario you like but there's just one scenario we'll all have to live with, and that's the actual result.

And any result where the LibDems take one or other party over the line is going to be a result where the LibDems take Dave into Downing Street. You know, a result where voting SNP has absolutely caused a tory govt, by causing the LibDems to be unable to back Labour.

Edited March 8, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I'm well aware of the Labour party's policies. I am also well aware of their record.

your posts constantly prove you don't know their policies.

Your posts constantly prove you don't know the SNP policies either, where you instead prefer to invent them in your head.

I'm not a great fan of the "red tory" brigade & it's not a phrase you will have heard me use. You will however have heard me regularly lament Labour's seemingly relentless drift to the right over the past 35 years. Ed may be pulling it back somewhat but it's still way to the right of what the Labour Party is meant to be.

and why is that?

Is it because there's an electorate who wants them more to the left or an electorate who wanted them more to the right?

The fact of few voting for anything to the left shows how it is.

Or do you think people are thinking "Labour are too far to the right for me, so instead i'll vote for a party even further to the right"?

So, to sum up, there are different ideas on how fast we reduce the deficit & how we fund that reduction. i agree with you that Labour's plans are better than the Tories. But I happen to believe that Labour plans tweaked by the SNP are even better. But that is just my opinion. I don't claim to be the fountain of all knowledge & I am not arrogant enough to accuse you of being an idiot because you believe something different.

How is it a better policy for the poor if "tweaked" by the SNP, when the SNP "tweaking" would be the poor still paying at the same rate while thwe rich keep on running away with the money?

FFS. How does that match up with your claimed disgust that Labour have let the rich run away with all the money, when you want the govt to help the rich keep doing that?

The SNP cannot tax anyone in the UK because they can't form a government on their own.

The SNP take stances on other issues at Westminster, but they won't take a stance on taxing the rich.

Only in the land of bullshit does your take on things absolve the SNP for their "DON'T tax the rich" stance.

Could you please stop accusing me of supporting the SNP. When I have decided who to vote for, I rpomise you'll be the first to know & If I decide to vote SNP, I will be happy to defend that decision.

You're planning to vote anti-Labour (you said it!), so perhaps I should cut to the chase and say what you're doing: supporting a tory victory by not supporting a Labour victory.

Even if the deficit is eliminated in the next parliament (& that is a big if) we will still be saddled with a humungous national deb - whoever is in power we are going to be paying that off for years, probably decades. So like it or not the banksters are getting that money for years - probably for the rest of our lives in fact. Let's not base our whole economic policy around getting the debt paid off as soon as possible. Let's take a more balanced view.

I'm well aware how debt repayments work, thanks.

I'm also well aware that increasing the debt as you want to happen increases the amount of free money given to the rich, to the detrement of the poor.

The ONLY way that changes is to back out of those debts, by paying them down, and by using the rich's money to pay back the rich.

A balanced view is one where there's a better balance of the economy for the poor - which can only happen by stopping the rich's robbery thru debt. I'm not saying "pay it off in five minutes", I'm saying stop playing the game where only the rich can win.

You are well aware that I am in favour of increased taxation for the rich - are you suggesting the SNP would veto any such taxation as their cost for a deal?

I'm saying show me the facts to show SNP support for taxing the rich. You know, like Labour support taxing the rich.

You can't.

And that's because the SNP do not favour taxing the rich. If they did, they'd have a policy of taxing the rich rather than have had a policy of free money for the rich which they've only abandoned in the last week.

[eFestivals]

PS: .. until just last week, the SNP corp tax policy was more to the right than tory corp tax policy - because for the tories lower corp tax is an aspiration, whereas for the SNP it was a policy to be implemented immediately - so that the rich could run away with more money immediately.

Now the SNP merely match the tories again, of lower corp tax and more robbery by the rich being just their aspiration.

But don't let the truth of SNP get in the way of people making it up for themselves. Referencing the facts would never do.

Edited March 8, 2015 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

http://dailywales.net/2015/03/06/leanne-wood-draws-post-election-red-line-and-drops-referendum-bombshell/

[feral chile]

oops wrong thread

Edited March 8, 2015 by feral chile

[LJS]

a possible consequence of those who'll vote anti-Labour when wanting Labour.

But hey, rinse your hands of the consequences you might cause just as you've rinsed your mind of policies.

& Labour rinse their hands of the responsibility for keeping Tories in government because of their petty dislike of the SNP.

Anyway, it ain't gonna happen, at least not after this election.

[LJS]

The SNP take stances on other issues at Westminster, but they won't take a stance on taxing the rich.

...

I'm saying show me the facts to show SNP support for taxing the rich. You know, like Labour support taxing the rich.

You can't.

And that's because the SNP do not favour taxing the rich. If they did, they'd have a policy of taxing the rich rather than have had a policy of free money for the rich which they've only abandoned in the last week.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11265420/Nicola-Sturgeon-Im-not-waging-class-war-against-the-rich.html

[LJS]

PS: .. until just last week, the SNP corp tax policy was more to the right than tory corp tax policy - because for the tories lower corp tax is an aspiration, whereas for the SNP it was a policy to be implemented immediately - so that the rich could run away with more money immediately.

Now the SNP merely match the tories again, of lower corp tax and more robbery by the rich being just their aspiration.

But don't let the truth of SNP get in the way of people making it up for themselves. Referencing the facts would never do.

I know it's confusing for you, Neil. But a proposal in a white paper for an independent Scotland, which (in case you hadn't noticed has been delayed for a few years) is completely irrelevant to a UK General election.

It's certainly less relevant than the last Labour government's record on corpn tax. Remind me, Neil, how many times did they cut it?

Edited March 8, 2015 by LJS

[LJS]

You'd almost think Labour want to lose Scotland

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/scottish-politics/murphys-chief-of-staff-thatcher-economic-reforms-were-a-good-thing.120135088

Edited March 8, 2015 by LJS

[eFestivals]

& Labour rinse their hands of the responsibility for keeping Tories in government because of their petty dislike of the SNP.

Anyway, it ain't gonna happen, at least not after this election.

Petty dislike? Or a party opposed to everything that Labour stands for?

You know, solidarity against the rich, the rich that the SNP don't think should pay more.

[LJS]

Petty dislike? Or a party opposed to everything that Labour stands for?

You know, solidarity against the rich, the rich that the SNP don't think should pay more.

Perhaps you can help me, Neil. I've looked everywhere but I can't find anywhere where the SNP say the rich shouldn't pay more. I know you would never just make stuff up so i'm sure you'll be happy to give me a few examples.

[LJS]

Loving all the "red lines" being drawn at the moment

SNP ruling themselves out of government with an impossible stance on Trident...

Clyde ruling themselves out of government with an impossible stance on Welsh funding...

UKIP ruling themselves out of coalition full stop...

If I was a voter with any sway to any of these parties I would be looking to back more sensible options. The traditional parties must be loving their stupidity.

Pay attention, Barry! SNP have subtly altered their stance on Trident to "we will nevere vote for the renewal of trident. It would appear Nicola is serious about playing some sort of role in the next government.

[LondonTom]

We have got a Labour government in 3 out of these 8 elections. On the face of it that doesn't sound too bad ...nearly half the time we get the government we vote for. .. or do we?

Why does this matter at all to you? You could take a number of areas around the entire country that have "voted for a Labour government" and not got the government they "voted for"? Its a collective result....

Edited March 9, 2015 by LondonTom

[Comfy Bean]

Why does this matter at all to you? You could take a number of areas around the entire country that have "voted for a Labour government" and not got the government they "voted for"? Its a collective result....

We had a bash at this in the Indy thread Tom but think the conclusion was that the Scottish folks reckon Scotland is a Country while Neil and Russy ( apologies if I`m not remembering this correctly ) actually reckon Scotland is not a country. As LJS said, Scotland never votes Tory ( 1 ( one ) MP at the moment and that is possibly going to be none soon ). England, as a country does align with the Tories, so at the moment Scotland gets a Tory Government that another Country votes for. I agree with you that this is a sore one for folks who live in towns and cities in England that don`t vote Tory but their Country does and theres the rub.

As I said we`ve done this already and doubt anyone is going to change their views so I`ve attached an article from today that comes at the subject from a different angle. There are too many classic quotes for me to highlight but apparantly Scottish people voting are puting democracy at risk ( work that one out ) and the Thames and the Mersey will literally foam with blood............

https://archive.today/cpsbN

[eFestivals]

We had a bash at this in the Indy thread Tom but think the conclusion was that the Scottish folks reckon Scotland is a Country while Neil and Russy ( apologies if I`m not remembering this correctly ) actually reckon Scotland is not a country.

There is nothing meaningful for what is a country that can be applied to scotland. If scotland is a country than so is Pictland, which means neither Scotland nor Pictland can be a country.

And until the SNP stirred up nationalist feeling for only their own benefit, people in Scotland were thinking of Scotland as a country less and less.

But don't let that stop you re-inventing history to prop up the nationalist lies of division.

Scotland never votes Tory

not true. Around 20% of Scots vote tory today, plus a number who vote tartan tories. In the past, Scotland voted MAJORITY tory when England did not.

And in the new glorious indie Scotland, the exact same "didn't get what we voted for" thing would remain, but nothing of that new wonderful Scotland would accept the same argument that the SNP are making against the UK. Anyone might think the SNP don't believe in devolution or the distribution of power - because they don't.

It's naff all about what Scotland wants. It's everything of what the SNP want.

England, as a country does align with the Tories, so at the moment Scotland gets a Tory Government that another Country votes for.

there is no "England" or "Scotland" in UK general elections.

And that's exactly how Scotland wants it, if your memory can stretch back as far as September?

I agree with you that this is a sore one for folks who live in towns and cities in England that don`t vote Tory but their Country does and theres the rub.

And things will be just as sore in Scotland on 8th May when your choice of vote has caused another tory govt for Scotland when you could have stopped it.

Which will make those English non tories mighty pissed off with those who vote with prejudice and not the facts. You're the equivalent of the English who'll vote UKIP cos they want a EU referendum.

[eFestivals]

Clyde ruling themselves out of government with an impossible stance on Welsh funding...

I'm wondering if the SNP-ers can support that?

After all, that nasty Welsh nationalist is saying she wants to rob Scotland's money, which makes her as nasty as any Englishman who says that.

[eFestivals]

You'd almost think Labour want to lose Scotland

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/scottish-politics/murphys-chief-of-staff-thatcher-economic-reforms-were-a-good-thing.120135088

I don't agree with that article at all, but I've gotta wet myself at the nationalist being riled about an ideology where you get to spend only your own money.

The rise of the SNP is actually Thatcherism finally hitting ho9me in Scotland, the advent of a "me me me" ideology over a community working together in common cause.

[eFestivals]

Perhaps you can help me, Neil. I've looked everywhere but I can't find anywhere where the SNP say the rich shouldn't pay more. I know you would never just make stuff up so i'm sure you'll be happy to give me a few examples.

Can you find anything where the SNP say "the rich should pay more" or "tax the rich"?

That Telegraph article doesn't count btw. It says "minded" - tho Nicola somehow forgot to include even that "minded" in the speech she made after that Telegraph interview. How come?

And that "minded" translates as "tax the English, and even the Scottish if the Scottish can blame the English for it".

Scotland will only have that 50p rate from May 2016 (when income tax goes properly to Scotland) IF the UK has first made it UK-wide. They won't introduce it themselves, as they couldn't then blame nasty Westminster for it.

Edited March 9, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

I think Scotland is a Country. I`ve always thought that, I didn`t need Alex Salmond to tell me.

[kaosmark2]

I think Scotland is a Country. I`ve always thought that, I didn`t need Alex Salmond to tell me.

Lots of Scots do though, despite Salmond they voted to not be a country.

[Comfy Bean]

Scotland will only have that 50p rate from May 2016 (when income tax goes properly to Scotland) IF the UK has first made it UK-wide. They won't introduce it themselves, as they couldn't then blame nasty Westminster for it.

Time will tell if you are right about NS not favoring a 50p higher tax rate. I suspect you are wrong.

You never did get back to me on how the removal of rates exemptions from shooting estates was not a tax on the rich ?