General Election 2015

[eFestivals]

Time will tell if you are right about NS not favoring a 50p higher tax rate. I suspect you are wrong.

If the SNP favoured it for Scotland they'd have had it within their indie proposal - where instead they only wanted to let the rich run away with even more of the money!!

You never did get back to me on how the removal of rates exemptions from shooting estates was not a tax on the rich ?

As your own words say, it's not a new or extra tax, it's the removal of a tax exemption.

So all they're being asked to do is to pay at the same rate as everyone else, not at a greater rate.

[Comfy Bean]

Lots of Scots do though, despite Salmond they voted to not be a country.

I`m not sure that was exactly how I read the question on the bit of paper but fair enough. As I said earlier, we can agree to disagree

[Comfy Bean]

As your own words say, it's not a new or extra tax, it's the removal of a tax exemption.

So all they're being asked to do is to pay at the same rate as everyone else, not at a greater rate.

The same rate as everyone else who owns a shooting estate do you mean !!

They used to not have to pay rates on their estate. Now they have to pay a tax. They are " the rich " in your argument . FFS, I thought you would have congratulated the SNP for quickly ditching this ludicrous exemption. You just can`t bring yourself to do it though

As I said on the 50p tax. Time will tell. You may be right but I don`t think you will be.

[Comfy Bean]

I'm wondering if the SNP-ers can support that?

After all, that nasty Welsh nationalist is saying she wants to rob Scotland's money, which makes her as nasty as any Englishman who says that.

These jocks and Welsh lot should really know their place. Are the rivers near you foaming with blood yet

[eFestivals]

These jocks and Welsh lot should really know their place. Are the rivers near you foaming with blood yet

You're both allowed to ask for what you want; you don't necessarily get it. That's how it works.

But seeing as taking even a penny from Scotland is considered nasty if Westminster do it, then it's equally nasty if another nationalist party do it, if the SNP have principles and equality of views.

Or is it really about hate of the English after all?

I look forward to you either saying it's good for Wales to get the same deal - in which case England deserves it too and Scotland looses, or a condemnation of anyone taking money from Scotland.

Either way, the SNP and their supporters are exposed for what they are.

[Comfy Bean]

You're both allowed to ask for what you want; you don't necessarily get it. That's how it works.

But seeing as taking even a penny from Scotland is considered nasty if Westminster do it, then it's equally nasty if another nationalist party do it, if the SNP have principles and equality of views.

Or is it really about hate of the English after all?

I look forward to you either saying it's good for Wales to get the same deal - in which case England deserves it too and Scotland looses, or a condemnation of anyone taking money from Scotland.

Either way, the SNP and their supporters are exposed for what they are.

When did I say Westminster was England ?

I did say ( about 100 times as you know ) that I thought Westminster was outdated, corrupt and pretty vile and that it`s destruction could be a good thing for Scotland and England and Wales for that matter. I have also said I have nothing against the good folks in England. They are by far the biggest in our Union and their political leanings are different to those in Scotland ( see the polls ). I also said it could be a good thing for the Labour party up here but when I tried to make that point in the Indy thread the other day you defended their NHS immigration leaflet thingy. In chasing middle englander votes I don`t think they are doing much good for themselves, Scots or Welsh voters ( see the polls ).

I don`t know what you mean by " exposed for what they are ". You used to go on about how it was all about greed and oil but now the oil price is down the shitter and support for Indy continues to rise I was hoping you might drop that patter cause it looks a bit daft

[gary1979666]

I think Scotland is a Country. I`ve always thought that, I didn`t need Alex Salmond to tell me.

I can't remember from the official definitions if Scotland is a country. I think it does class a nation however. But the north east is a region. Region, nation, country, area, county,.... in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter - unless any of these actually declare independence and become a sovereign state, then the classifications are as meaningless as whether you see the blue and black dress or the white and gold one.

Also, you harp on about only having one tory, but they only polled 3% behind the SNP and Libs in 2010. That's not really that much.

[Comfy Bean]

I can't remember from the official definitions if Scotland is a country. I think it does class a nation however. But the north east is a region. Region, nation, country, area, county,.... in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter - unless any of these actually declare independence and become a sovereign state, then the classifications are as meaningless as whether you see the blue and black dress or the white and gold one.

Also, you harp on about only having one tory, but they only polled 3% behind the SNP and Libs in 2010. That's not really that much.

One seat isn`t really that much mate and it could soon be less. I look forward to the next time we play The East at the footy

Apologies for raising this whole Scotland is not a Country stuff. For what it`s worth, I also think Wales is a country but I don`t think Merseyside is.

[eFestivals]

When did I say Westminster was England ?

I did say ( about 100 times as you know ) that I thought Westminster was outdated, corrupt and pretty vile and that it`s destruction could be a good thing for Scotland and England and Wales for that matter.

care to say how you'll have a Scotland that treats its poor better with 10% less public spending?

The SNP don't have the answer, so I reckon you don't.

It might be a good idea if you ask the SNP the question tho. You'll either learn how they plan to handle it, or they'll lie to you and say they don't have to do that even those the Scotrtish accounts they produced say that they'd have to.

In fact, the EU that an indy Scotland is so keen to join would insist on it anyway. It's part of the club rules.

( see the polls ).

I suggest you see comparitive social attitudes surveys - which clearly say there's much lesser different in views than the SNP's bullshit you've fallen for says.

I don`t know what you mean by " exposed for what they are ". You used to go on about how it was all about greed and oil but now the oil price is down the shitter and support for Indy continues to rise I was hoping you might drop that patter cause it looks a bit daft

Is it a bad thing or a good thing for the 'nations' of the UK to be treated equally? I can't expose your view for what it is unless you give it.

You used to go on about how it was all about greed and oil but now the oil price is down the shitter and support for Indy continues to rise I was hoping you might drop that patter cause it looks a bit daft

You've said "the oil price now means nothing, as Scotland wouldn't have been indie until March 2016."

To which I (previously) asked "so do you accept iScotland would have been fucked if the oil price is still low in a year?" You ran away from giving an answer, I'm sure there's a reason why.

I present the historical GERS spreadsheet (compiled by your mate Alex, don't forget), and you won't accept what it clearly says, that Scotland runs (with oil included) a bigger average deficit than whole-UK. You refuse to accept it.

So while the facts say you'll be poorer, support for indie rises because you don't do facts. And yet ... support for indie isn't rising, which you'd know if you did facts.

(You'd still lose, but don't let that stop the myth. Scotland would be nothing without those myths. )

[eFestivals]

I can't remember from the official definitions if Scotland is a country.

For anything external from the UK, Scotland is a region of the UK according to *ALL* official govt documents / treaties / etc.

In stuff for internal UK consumption, Scotland is often referred to as a nation or country - as a sopp to nationalists who can't face the truth.

But, as I said, Pictland is no less of a country or nation than Scotland in every measure you might use - and no one in Scotland would accept Pictland.

Which proves even in a Scottish consistent take, Scotland is not a country.

Also, you harp on about only having one tory, but they only polled 3% behind the SNP and Libs in 2010. That's not really that much.

You're forgetting that in the wonderful new iScotland, only the SNP will be allowed to win elections.

And they'll certainly be none of that devolution stuff. Centralisation, the nasty thing that Westminster does, is perfect for Scotland say the SNP.

[kaosmark2]

Apologies for raising this whole Scotland is not a Country stuff. For what it`s worth, I also think Wales is a country but I don`t think Merseyside is.

The issue though, isn't that, it's the "government Scotland votes for" line (which I think was brought up again by LJS). The government Scotland votes for doesn't matter a damn because Scotland is part of the UK and it's the UK government that people in Scotland are voting for, or for their specific constituency. What MPs are returned in the region of Scotland doesn't matter any more that what MPs are returned in London, Sussex, East Anglia, Yorkshire, Wales, Cornwall, whatever.

What matters is what appears in Westminster, and 6 months ago Scotland voted to continue that.

[Comfy Bean]

You've said "the oil price now means nothing, as Scotland wouldn't have been indie until March 2016."

To which I (previously) asked "so do you accept iScotland would have been fucked if the oil price is still low in a year?" You ran away from giving an answer, I'm sure there's a reason why.

So while the facts say you'll be poorer, support for indie rises because you don't do facts. And yet ... support for indie isn't rising, which you'd know if you did facts.

We are now seriously in " wrong thread territory ". I see it doesn`t stop you making it up as you go along though

On the oil, my point is that the figures were given for a period we have not reached yet. If you know what the price of oil will be in a years time then fair play to you. I vaguely remember posting the " debt bomb " at the time we were discussing how " fucked " Scotland would be. I`ll post it again as a sad reminder to us all.

On the support for Indy point. The most up to date ( feb ) figures I can see was what I was referring to. If there are more up to date figures then fair enough. Post them up cause I haven`t seen them.

[Comfy Bean]

Yip.....it`s still going up

http://www.debtbombshell.com/

[eFestivals]

Yip.....it`s still going up

http://www.debtbombshell.com/

PMSL.

You do know that it's your glorious leader who wants to take it up and up and up and up, don't you? Just her!!

You say SNP policy is a bad thing!!

Perhaps try following the facts and not making it up for yourself?

[eFestivals]

On the oil, my point is that the figures were given for a period we have not reached yet. If you know what the price of oil will be in a years time then fair play to you.

I'm not claiming to know what it'll be in a year.

I'm asking: If it's still low in a year, would iScotland be financially fucked?

You always run away from this question!!

On the support for Indy point. The most up to date ( feb ) figures I can see was what I was referring to....

It's easy to say yes to that question when there's no consequences from it. Try another indie ref, and see how well that percentage (doesn't!) hold up.

Meanwhile, polls show the SNP vote will be just about the same as the support they got for indie - not enough support. It's not moved at all.

[Comfy Bean]

PMSL.

You do know that it's your glorious leader who wants to take it up and up and up and up, don't you? Just her!!

You say SNP policy is a bad thing!!

Perhaps try following the facts and not making it up for yourself?

I`ll need to click on it again. Are you saying it`s going down ?

Despite all the cuts, here was me thinking it was still going up. How you doing with this support for indy going down thing of yours.

Edited March 9, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

I'm not claiming to know what it'll be in a year.

I'm asking: If it's still low in a year, would iScotland be financially fucked?

You always run away from this question!!

Good to the first bit. I don`t think it is likely but the price of oil could be up by quite a bit by the time we get to the period we were ( hypothetically ) talking about. If it is / was up then that would obviously be a good thing for an indy scotland due to the increased revenues and if it remains low then of course that would be a bad thing.

As I said earlier ( and a 100 times before ) it was not about oil. You said many times that it was about greed / oil and now that SNP and indy support are both on the rise and the price is in the shitter your point was wrong ( in my opinion ).

[eFestivals]

I`ll need to click on it again. Are you saying it`s going down ?

no, I'm saying that it's the SNP's stated policy to INCREASE THE DEBT by MUCH MORE than any other party.

And you say increasing it is a bad thing, while supporting the party who will increase it the most.

It's a good job you always swerve the facts, else your head might explode.

[eFestivals]

Good to the first bit. I don`t think it is likely but the price of oil could be up by quite a bit by the time we get to the period we were ( hypothetically ) talking about. If it is / was up then that would obviously be a good thing for an indy scotland due to the increased revenues and if it remains low then of course that would be a bad thing.

As I said earlier ( and a 100 times before ) it was not about oil. You said many times that it was about greed / oil and now that SNP and indy support are both on the rise and the price is in the shitter your point was wrong ( in my opinion ).

So you admit that Salmond's financial projections were a total fuck up, because he said it was impossible for the oil price to fall below $77.

You do know he said that, don't you? And that the whole future of your country was based on his fuck up?

If it's not about money, why all the comments about the oil revenues being collected by London?

If it's not about money, why all the claims by your glorious leader of money falling from the sky as rain in iScotland, where you'll all be much richer?

If it's not about money, why the claims of how much better a Scottish govt would look after its poor but no thinking about where the money would come from to look after those poor?

If it's not about money, why won't you accept what GERS says about Scotland's poor financial position?

If it's not about money, why is debt in Westminster a bad thing, unless it's debt created at the SNP's behest?

Etc, etc, etc.

If it's not about money, I look forwards to the next indieref where the campaign will be about "vote indie, vote yourself poorer" and an easy win for the nationalists.

(and if a campaign actually happened on that basis and Scotland voted for it, to know what they were getting, I'd be quite happy for you to knowingly take that path [rather than be mugged into it by lies, as honest Alex tried doing])

Edited March 9, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

no, I'm saying that it's the SNP's stated policy to INCREASE THE DEBT by MUCH MORE than any other party.

And you say increasing it is a bad thing, while supporting the party who will increase it the most.

It's a good job you always swerve the facts, else your head might explode.

What I`m saying is that our debt appears to be rising despite the many many cuts we have already. Where did Dave and Osbourne predict we would be on this by 2015 ?

NS has said plenty on a different approach to austerity as I suspect you know. I agree with her, I assume you don`t.

“modest, responsible increases in public spending” of about 0.5% in real terms, “debt and deficit would still be falling as a percentage of GDP over these years but we would free up something in the region of £180bn over the UK to invest in infrastructure, in innovation, in growing the economy”

“I would certainly hope if there was a Labour government and it was dependent on SNP support – which is the most popular preferred outcome of people in Scotland – then I would hope we could persuade and influence a Labour government to take a more moderate approach to deficit reduction.”

“I am not going to support governments that plough ahead with austerity that damaged the poorest in society.”

“The current UK government’s economic policy has failed even on its own terms. It has failed to reduce the deficit as planned and it has failed even more comprehensively to rebalance the economy. Economic policy is a means not an end; it is the means for citizens to lead happy, healthy, fulfilling lives.

[Comfy Bean]

So you admit that Salmond's financial projections were a total fuck up, because he said it was impossible for the oil price to fall below $77.

You do know he said that, don't you? And that the whole future of your country was based on his fuck up?

If it's not about money, why all the comments about the oil revenues being collected by London?

If it's not about money, why all the claims by your glorious leader of money falling from the sky as rain in iScotland, where you'll all be much richer?

If it's not about money, why the claims of how much better a Scottish govt would look after its poor but no thinking about where the money would come from to look after those poor?

If it's not about money, why won't you accept what GERS says about Scotland's poor financial position?

If it's not about money, why is debt in Westminster a bad thing, unless it's debt created at the SNP's behest?

Etc, etc, etc.

If it's not about money, I look forwards to the next indieref where the campaign will be about "vote indie, vote yourself poorer" and an easy win for the nationalists.

(and if a campaign actually happened on that basis and Scotland voted for it, to know what they were getting, I'd be quite happy for you to knowingly take that path [rather than be mugged into it by lies, as honest Alex tried doing])

If it IS all about the money, then how do you explain the polls ?

[gary1979666]

One seat isn`t really that much mate and it could soon be less. I look forward to the next time we play The East at the footy

Apologies for raising this whole Scotland is not a Country stuff. For what it`s worth, I also think Wales is a country but I don`t think Merseyside is.

I wasn't denying Scotland being a country - done some checking and it is a country - just not a sovereign state. But my point was, so what. Why should a country's choice matter anymore than a region's (the fact you have a footy team is sadly not quite enough)? At what point do you stop? Region? county? The fact is you don't even go that far, your arbitrary classification of country, is just that - it only matters what your sovereign country votes for.

[Comfy Bean]

The government Scotland votes for doesn't matter a damn because Scotland is part of the UK and it's the UK government that people in Scotland are voting for, or for their specific constituency. What MPs are returned in the region of Scotland doesn't matter any more that what MPs are returned in London, Sussex, East Anglia, Yorkshire, Wales, Cornwall, whatever.

What matters is what appears in Westminster, and 6 months ago Scotland voted to continue that.

Aye, I agree with what your saying here Mark. I also agree with what Patrick Harvie said :

"In a system as unfair and unrepresentative as a Westminster election there will, sadly, always be an element of tactical voting.

But it should never be promoted above the principles and ideas a political party stands for.

When that happens, it suggests to me that the party in question has forgotten what those principles and ideas were in the first place. "

[eFestivals]

What I`m saying is that our debt appears to be rising despite the many many cuts we have already. Where did Dave and Osbourne predict we would be on this by 2015 ?

And why hasn't it been cut by that amount? Might it be because the likes of you demand your children's money is spent on you?

FFS. You're saying here it's a bad thing that Osborne hasn't cut harder.

And then ....

NS has said plenty on a different approach to austerity as I suspect you know. I agree with her, I assume you don`t.

a different approach which says...

"run up the debts of a country we disown and where we certainly disown the debts they run up on our behalf ... and where we have no idea about how to pay it back".

So yes, you're right. There's not that many who think being robbed is a good policy.

“modest, responsible increases in public spending” of about 0.5% in real terms, “debt and deficit would still be falling as a percentage of GDP over these years but we would free up something in the region of £180bn over the UK to invest in infrastructure, in innovation, in growing the economy”

“I would certainly hope if there was a Labour government and it was dependent on SNP support – which is the most popular preferred outcome of people in Scotland – then I would hope we could persuade and influence a Labour government to take a more moderate approach to deficit reduction.”

“I am not going to support governments that plough ahead with austerity that damaged the poorest in society.”

“The current UK government’s economic policy has failed even on its own terms. It has failed to reduce the deficit as planned and it has failed even more comprehensively to rebalance the economy. Economic policy is a means not an end; it is the means for citizens to lead happy, healthy, fulfilling lives.

around 8% of govt spending (which is about 10% of govt revenues) is currently a "bankers tax" - free tax-payers money given to bankers for doing fuck all, and which gives us nothing.

When it could instead be spent on the poor.

Nicola and you want to gift those bankers even more money, so there's even to be spent on the poor.

Meanwhile, Nicola still won't say "tax the rich", so she expects the poor to pay it back as well as have it taken from them. Anyone with basic maths knows it's the SNP's free-Uni-fees policy writ large, of rob the poor to benefit the middle-clases - 100% Blairism, but you hate Labour (not just nuLabour, but everything Labour).

But don't let the facts get in the way of you making it up.

Edited March 9, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

If it IS all about the money, then how do you explain the polls ?

If it's not about money, why will no yes-er ever face up to the truth of GERS, and the truth of volatile oil prices?

If it wasn't about money, those truths wouldn't matter to you.