General Election 2015

[the_hedge]

The pro-war brother? The pro-ID card brother? The brother who wanted less regulation of banks?

This country will not vote in a left leaning Labour Party with Ed Milliband in charge.

Now I agree with a lot more of Ed's policies than his brothers but that won't get him elected. Blair realised this and grabbed the centre ground to rescue Labour from years 18 years in the wilderness.

For a left leaning Labour Party to get in they need someone someone with a lot of charisma to persuade the country to change and Ed is not the man. You almost need Blair's skilll with the media with Ed's policies.

Foot was a clever man but there was no way the country would have voted him in, we are too stupid.

[kaosmark2]

I agree that ed doesn't have popular appeal, but I rated ed higher than his brother in the labour election and while he's been shit I don't think his brother is a great inspirational leader either. David has always been a bit of a geek, he doesn't have Blair's charisma and I don't think the difference in electoral appeal between the two is that significant.

[eFestivals]

That would be based on this report.

no it wouldn't.

It's based on the Scottish Govts own published numbers, which clearly show that Scottish A&E performance is worse than England (despite a 10% greater spend per-head). And do note how the SG don't do weekly updates of those numbers (unlike England), cos it would make them look more shit.

Yes, there's a million different reasons for the differences, but amongst those million different reasons one stands proudest - and that's the postcode lottery that devolution creates.

Edited February 3, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I don't think the difference in electoral appeal between the two is that significant.

how Ed eats a bacon sandwich isn't significant.

And yet it's exceedingly significant towards how many will use their votes. He's a weirdo, and therefore they won't vote for him.

[gary1979666]

how Ed eats a bacon sandwich isn't significant.

And yet it's exceedingly significant towards how many will use their votes. He's a weirdo, and therefore they won't vote for him.

The sandwich in itself isn't significant. However the whole impression of how he is, is very important. He's not applying for the job in a call centre, he wants to be prime minister of the UK. You want to make sure when then Downing St BBQ with Obama happens, that he's not dribbling ketchup down his front. Or in a meeting with EU leaders, you don't want him to be the 'joke' leader there.

OK, I don't like his politics either, but I'm sure the above will be what features in a lot of people's decision making process.

[eFestivals]

The sandwich in itself isn't significant. However the whole impression of how he is, is very important. He's not applying for the job in a call centre, he wants to be prime minister of the UK. You want to make sure when then Downing St BBQ with Obama happens, that he's not dribbling ketchup down his front. Or in a meeting with EU leaders, you don't want him to be the 'joke' leader there.

OK, I don't like his politics either, but I'm sure the above will be what features in a lot of people's decision making process.

I don't doubt it will, but that only illustrates the stupidity of those people.

It's the policies which matter.

[gary1979666]

Back to a good ole election favourite - tuition fees. Is the pledge by Labour to reduce them to £6k pa a good idea?

There was a letter in the Times yesterday by Uni VP's that by reducing it, then it is effectively helping the rich, as only those graduates who earn more will end up paying the additional £3k, so by reducing to £6k the more well off benefit and those who come out and earn a salary in the early 20's will still pay the same back.

I remember so much misunderstanding of the fees when they came out that I wonder if this subtley will be picked up, or will they just see the headline reduction.

[5co77ie]

Or in a meeting with EU leaders, you don't want him to be the 'joke' leader there.

So which of the world leaders currently holds this position? How many do you like the look of? Politics with a personality eh?

Eating breakfast properly - with a pint!

Edited February 3, 2015 by 5co77ie

[gary1979666]

I don't doubt it will, but that only illustrates the stupidity of those people.

It's the policies which matter.

Yes and no - I think the policies are the most important thing and will trump personality. However they need some sort of charisma to get to those who don't read the papers, etc.

[eFestivals]

Back to a good ole election favourite - tuition fees. Is the pledge by Labour to reduce them to £6k pa a good idea?

There was a letter in the Times yesterday by Uni VP's that by reducing it, then it is effectively helping the rich, as only those graduates who earn more will end up paying the additional £3k, so by reducing to £6k the more well off benefit and those who come out and earn a salary in the early 20's will still pay the same back.

I remember so much misunderstanding of the fees when they came out that I wonder if this subtley will be picked up, or will they just see the headline reduction.

I'm not entirely sure of the full policy (more than just the fees students pay), to know whether the criticism by Uni VPs is justified. I suspect that the criticism by those Uni VPs is more to do with them shoring up their own position than it is anything about the students.

But if the criticism is that lower fees benefit the rich, then there's much better ways to ensure that the rich pay a fair share than can be done thru fees - such as a graduate tax, or simply higher general taxation.

So those VPs are talking self-serving bollocks, ultimately.

[gary1979666]

So which of the world leaders currently holds this position? How many do you like the look of? Politics with a personality eh?

Eating breakfast properly - with a pint!

Love the photo!!

Easy. The joke leader has to be Hollande! He was unlucky to have missed Burlesconi's reign!

[eFestivals]

Yes and no - I think the policies are the most important thing and will trump personality. However they need some sort of charisma to get to those who don't read the papers, etc.

so what you're saying is that politicians should operate on the 'stupid' level because the electorate does.

Wouldn't things be better if both the politicians and the electorate operated on the smart level?

Just a thought.

[gary1979666]

I'm not entirely sure of the full policy (more than just the fees students pay), to know whether the criticism by Uni VPs is justified. I suspect that the criticism by those Uni VPs is more to do with them shoring up their own position than it is anything about the students.

But if the criticism is that lower fees benefit the rich, then there's much better ways to ensure that the rich pay a fair share than can be done thru fees - such as a graduate tax, or simply higher general taxation.

So those VPs are talking self-serving bollocks, ultimately.

There's self interest in everything. They're worried about the funding gap that this policy would create.

What happens now is pretty much a graduate tax. Over the years, you build up a debt,so 3 year course = £27k debt. Then when you start earning and reach £21k, you pay 9% on anything over that amount - e.g. you earn £31k, then in a year you repay (31k-21k) * 9% = £900 = £75/month. This continues until either the debt is paid or 30 year is up. So if you stay on £31k, then you pay back £900 * 30 = £27k and the rest (interest) is written off. If you only ever earn £21k, you pay nothing. If you earn more, then you end up paying it all back.

I know the repayment is hard on grads starting out, but so would a tax. It seems like as fair a way of doing it as possible.

[gary1979666]

so what you're saying is that politicians should operate on the 'stupid' level because the electorate does.

Wouldn't things be better if both the politicians and the electorate operated on the smart level?

Just a thought.

Won't get me arguing with that. But pretending everyone does operate like that won't help anyone.

[eFestivals]

It seems like as fair a way of doing it as possible.

Nope, you can't get fairer than via general taxation.

That means the rich pay proportionately more - ANY one who is rich, not just graduates. Because everyone within the nation benefits from a better educated nation, not only those who receive that better education.

Just because the tory dream is everyone paying for what they use, it doesn't get to mean it's the fairest way of doing things.

[eFestivals]

Won't get me arguing with that. But pretending everyone does operate like that won't help anyone.

and pretending that how he eats a sandwich matters - as you're doing - doesn't help either.

Only policies matter.

[viberunner]

Heard Hague talking about the English vote for English law ting this morning - seems a bit of a halfway house. So an English law needs a majority of English MPs to vote for it, but if the Scotish/Irish/Welsh MPs don't like it then they can combine with the opposition and overturn it. Seems a bit silly.

I suppose if Labour don't have a majority in England come May, then it means the Torys can stop them putting through, but still seems neither nowt nor something.

Something needs to be done. Foundation hospitals? Elderly care home costs? Student tuition fees?

These horrors were forced on the English electorate despite a clear majority of English MPs voting against them. How did that happen? Labour whipped their Scottish MPs to vote for their introduction knowing it would never affect them personally, their families or their constituents. (The SNP abstained from these votes).

[eFestivals]

Something needs to be done. Foundation hospitals? Elderly care home costs? Student tuition fees?

These horrors were forced on the English electorate despite a clear majority of English MPs voting against them. How did that happen? Labour whipped their Scottish MPs to vote for their introduction knowing it would never affect them personally, their families or their constituents. (The SNP abstained from these votes).

the SNP didn't abstain.

But don't let that stop you creating another false SNP myth, will you?

[gary1979666]

Nope, you can't get fairer than via general taxation.

That means the rich pay proportionately more - ANY one who is rich, not just graduates. Because everyone within the nation benefits from a better educated nation, not only those who receive that better education.

Just because the tory dream is everyone paying for what they use, it doesn't get to mean it's the fairest way of doing things.

What?! Have people who had a free higher education pay extra tax so these young whippersnappers can enjoy the same! Madness! ;o)

I guess as time goes on and the generations when only a minority went to Uni, and more and more are on this scheme, then the richer do pay more (on average grads earn £9k more than non grads). This scheme is the same as the one Labour brought in, just with higher fees and a higher threshhold, so lower waged people pay less.

Why should uni be something paid for by the taxpayer - why shouldn't it be a choice - I want to study for a degree and potentially earn more, so therefore I'll pay for it. Non-grads can end up with on the job training instead - should that be refunded to the companies and recouped through general taxation?

[eFestivals]

Why should uni be something paid for by the taxpayer - why shouldn't it be a choice - I want to study for a degree and potentially earn more, so therefore I'll pay for it. Non-grads can end up with on the job training instead - should that be refunded to the companies and recouped through general taxation?

Once upon a time, companies got paid to formally train people and Unis were free. Maggie thought that was a batshit idea, so killed both of those.

Back to 2015, and Dave Moron is promising more 'modern apprenticeships' - a pathetically weak new version of what his hero abolished that even he knows was a terrible error.

Even your heroes know what's what. Why are you too daft to be even as daft as them?

[kaosmark2]

Why should uni be something paid for by the taxpayer

Is having an intelligent and well-educated populace a good thing?

I know people argue "what use is a degree in media studies" but STEM subjects as a bare minimum should be free university, and the rest shouldn't just be a luxury thing for the rich, otherwise universities will end up socially elitist again.

[russycarps]

it's really bugging me that this thread title doesnt have a capital G....

[eFestivals]

it's really bugging me that this thread title doesnt have a capital G....

anything for you, ya miserable git.

[russycarps]

anything for you, ya miserable git.

this is actually the best thing that's happened to me all day, cheers!

[pink_triangle]

Its easy for people to talk about how great David Milliband is when he has never had the scrutiny or attacks from the right wing press like his brother had. I suspect if David had won he would have proved a very underwhelming leader. I suspect that Cameron will remain PM propped up by coalition, but wouldnt rule out Ed surprising everyone. My suspicion is that labour need to look to someone witout ties to Blair/Brown to attract more swing voters in the future.

Edited February 3, 2015 by pink_triangle