feral chile Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 That wasn't the discussion though,you seem to just be ignoring my points.The word you used has many different thoughts attached to it which many people have.So a word is a word until you or others put their thoughts behind it.I'm not ignoring your points, what I'm saying is no matter what the context, no matter how the person uttering the words intends to use them, what actually matters is the person who 'hears' them, and although we have no control over that, if we know the possible connotations of the word (as in women policing each other etc.,) then as that specific example shows, context and intention is not enough to avoid offence. Because what you 'say' isn't what people 'hear'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallimuse Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 I'm not ignoring your points, what I'm saying is no matter what the context, no matter how the person uttering the words intends to use them, what actually matters is the person who 'hears' them, and although we have no control over that, if we know the possible connotations of the word (as in women policing each other etc.,) then as that specific example shows, context and intention is not enough to avoid offence. Because what you 'say' isn't what people 'hear'. So that's the same as what I said except to phrase it as a word gets its meaning from the person who hears it rather than says it.Fact is that words are words until a person either saying or listening puts meaning behind them.But the word is just a word. You wouldn't use certain words for fear of offending someone and it being taken the wrong way.So as I said a few posts back you censor yourself through choice rather than using a word or repeating a word in good faith because you fear it's negative aspects.I just view it as a word said in context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaosmark2 Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 So that's the same as what I said except to phrase it as a word gets its meaning from the person who hears it rather than says it.Fact is that words are words until a person either saying or listening puts meaning behind them.But the word is just a word. You wouldn't use certain words for fear of offending someone and it being taken the wrong way.So as I said a few posts back you censor yourself through choice rather than using a word or repeating a word in good faith because you fear it's negative aspects.I just view it as a word said in context. The very context of the word always includes a history of oppression. There may be additional context in the moment, but whatever it is, it cannot erase the historical context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallimuse Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 The very context of the word always includes a history of oppression. There may be additional context in the moment, but whatever it is, it cannot erase the historical context. But there's a difference between me calling a black person it and me singing along to a song surely to God?!?!How do you not see that? If I sing Misfits Last Caress does that mean I'm a paedophile?It contains the lyric "I fucked your baby today" after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaosmark2 Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Of course I see that, that doesn't mean you don't have to be aware of the context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feral chile Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Of course I see that, that doesn't mean you don't have to be aware of the context.and your potential audience and their sensibilities.And not just your intended audience. I was speaking to a male, and thought I was presenting my challenge in a way that I intended would be tailored to the audience, but 'overheard' by females, whom I unintentionally upset.I just think sometimes, being cautious in your choice of words is worth it, if it avoids potential pain to someone else.And really, it's a good rule of thumb to imagine you're being overheard, because if it's potentially offensive, to anyone at all, then it's questionable to say it in the first place. Edited March 22, 2015 by feral chile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaosmark2 Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 I sing along to hip hop. I don't when others are around. Although that's partially my singing voice is offensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feral chile Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) I sing along to hip hop. I don't when others are around. Although that's partially my singing voice is offensive.I don't listen to hip hop, Partly because I don't like the sound, partly because I don't like the lyrics.Though I do like rock music, for the sound, and that can be pretty sexist. Edited March 22, 2015 by feral chile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallimuse Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 I sing along to hip hop. I don't when others are around. Although that's partially my singing voice is offensive. I get that and agree but the original question that I've been arguing was would it be acceptable to sing along to Kanye at Glastonbury and use his full lyrics.Of course it would.Walking down the street at random,probably not for the reasons Feral has said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallimuse Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 and your potential audience and their sensibilities. And not just your intended audience. I was speaking to a male, and thought I was presenting my challenge in a way that I intended would be tailored to the audience, but 'overheard' by females, whom I unintentionally upset. I just think sometimes, being cautious in your choice of words is worth it, if it avoids potential pain to someone else. And really, it's a good rule of thumb to imagine you're being overheard, because if it's potentially offensive, to anyone at all, then it's questionable to say it in the first place. Yes & no. If I use a word that someone finds offensive that I didn't use in that way then after I've explained my meaning they still are offended then that's their problem.I know in my heart I don't offend people and am an apologetic person and kind but if they don't understand a rational discussion then that's their issue not mine and I won't feel bad over that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feral chile Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Yes & no.If I use a word that someone finds offensive that I didn't use in that way then after I've explained my meaning they still are offended then that's their problem.I know in my heart I don't offend people and am an apologetic person and kind but if they don't understand a rational discussion then that's their issue not mine and I won't feel bad over that.It probably depends on the word, and the context, to some extent. I've used words that have hurt my husband, and once he's explained to me that he's sensitive to them, I explain I didn't mean to hurt him and then try to avoid using them again.Because to continue using them when you know they upset someone... that's a whole new ball game.Problem is, it usually takes a lot for people to admit what you've said has upset them, but even if they know you didn't realise, they can still feel the sting.if you were happily singing along and you noticed someone was unhappy, would you stop, or think it was their problem? Edited March 22, 2015 by feral chile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallimuse Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 The odds of me using it in a setting where it would offend would be highly unlikely. If it's a song playing in a club and I'm singing along then I have never ever encountered anyone having a problem because we are there having a shared experience.Would I sing along to it on my headphones at a bus stop?Probs not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midnight Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 in a 2nd n-word thread, I've been called out as "old fashioned" for saying that I feel it's better that racist slurs were not again acceptable to be heard within society. While I'm perfectly happy to accept that ideas can change, no one is saying why it makes the world a better place to have those racist slurs as acceptable. We have 2 n-word threads? I blame Kanye. Or Emily E, for booking him. Yes, definitely her fault!! All the people who expressed their dismay about the word to me were indeed over 40, so maybe it is an intergenerational problem of the young ones wanting to show their parents that they can do this their own way. Good luck, I'd be too worried about playing into the hands of the people who will enjoy themselves just a little too much participating. I don't think enough time has passed, and the current political situation isn't relaxed enough. In case of doubt....it just aint worth the risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 A word is a word.The context of its use or its delivery may cause offense but it's still just a word.No word should be exclusive to one group and no word should be outlawed.then I suggest you go an call a black man 'nigger' and explain you didn't mean offence, and see if your take on things stands up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viberunner Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 then I suggest you go an call a black man 'nigger' and explain you didn't mean offence, and see if your take on things stands up. But context is everything. There's a big difference between surprising a random and using it as a term with black friends who use that term and accept it from their white friends. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/04/man-cleared-racial-abuse-endearment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) But context is everything.Context can only be set by the speaker.If you do what I suggest I reckon you'll find context is NOT "everything", because those listening reckon they have a right of interpretation all of their own. Edited March 29, 2015 by eFestivals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viberunner Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Context can only be set by the speaker. No, context is the environment in which the speaker engages. Example, if a sturdy black friend of mine threatens to stab me in the throat for smoking the last of our weed - and I know him and his humour well - I'm not alarmed... but if a similar-sized brother walks up to me at random on the street and threatens to stab me in the throat (for any reason) it will cause some amount of alarm. And if you say it like that, it's all obvious. And that's why your response then I suggest you go an call a black man 'nigger' and explain you didn't mean offence, and see if your take on things stands up. Is mendacious. The context isn't set by the speaker, but the speaker should be aware of the context and that means being aware of the audience. But in that respect it's the audience setting the context and the speaker responding to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feral chile Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) No, context is the environment in which the speaker engages. Example, if a sturdy black friend of mine threatens to stab me in the throat for smoking the last of our weed - and I know him and his humour well - I'm not alarmed... but if a similar-sized brother walks up to me at random on the street and threatens to stab me in the throat (for any reason) it will cause some amount of alarm. And if you say it like that, it's all obvious. And that's why your response Is mendacious. The context isn't set by the speaker, but the speaker should be aware of the context and that means being aware of the audience. But in that respect it's the audience setting the context and the speaker responding to it.Are you concerned that your audience might be tolerating casual racism so as not to cause a scene? Women do this all the time, if they like the person saying it, and know they personally don't mean to hurt them.It's quite difficult to challenge someone if you don't want to make them feel bad, don't want them to think you're being arsey with them, because the relationship as a whole is deemed more important.In other words, letting things slide isn't the same as not minding. Edited March 29, 2015 by feral chile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallimuse Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Are you concerned that your audience might be tolerating casual racism so as not to cause a scene? Women do this all the time, if they like the person saying it, and know they personally don't mean to hurt them. It's quite difficult to challenge someone if you don't want to make them feel bad, don't want them to think you're being arsey with them, because the relationship as a whole is deemed more important. In other words, letting things slide isn't the same as not minding. Well if that's true then say something. Why if you're friends would you not? Does this mean that you're going to continue to be friends with someone who constantly upsets you but you're too afraid to tell them?How is that a friendship?The thing that baffles me is that you said you know they don't mean it in the way you are perceiving it so really,who's at fault? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feral chile Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Well if that's true then say something. Why if you're friends would you not? Does this mean that you're going to continue to be friends with someone who constantly upsets you but you're too afraid to tell them?How is that a friendship?The thing that baffles me is that you said you know they don't mean it in the way you are perceiving it so really,who's at fault?I don't. I wouldn't have friends who'd do that, I'm quite picky. I'd quietly distance myself from them - and have done, at times. But I'd still find it difficult to challenge the directly. Because there's no point with people who just don't get what they're doing, and will still think it's your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) No, context is the environment in which the speaker engages.PMSL. That still gives the speaker no control over the context that others decide to put on those words, proving that context means nothing. Example, if a sturdy black friend of mine threatens to stab me in the throat for smoking the last of our weed - and I know him and his humour well - I'm not alarmed... but if a similar-sized brother walks up to me at random on the street and threatens to stab me in the throat (for any reason) it will cause some amount of alarm.and yet if you choose to take him at his word because you don't recognise or accept that context? And if you say it like that, it's all obvious.only when everything works to how YOU have decided it should work. Any person in a convo can only control their own words, not how those words are reacted to. The context isn't set by the speaker, but the speaker should be aware of the context and that means being aware of the audience. But in that respect it's the audience setting the context and the speaker responding to it.Oh right, so now you're saying that nothing of the speaker's meaning counts, because everything is decided by those who hear the words.PMSL. In which case, I'm offended by anyone using racial slurs and no one should use them within my earshot.And black people will tell me "we'll use whatever language suits us".Which gets to prove that your take is inconsistent self-justifying bollocks. Edited March 30, 2015 by eFestivals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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