Cashless? I'm stunned at the apathy.

[t8yman]

Having recently decided we may attend Download, and as a result not really being on this board much, and this morning realising that DL is cashless this year - I did a search for the thread where everyone was bitching about it, because they must be? No?

My search turned up about 6 posts mentioning the subject, and very few of them seemed to care much about it.

I'm amazed, do people not know that the RFID chips in these dogtags will be used to track you everywhere on site, to analyse your buying habits, to analyse your movements, and to design tailored advertising etc? you will no longer be a person in a field watching bands and having a laugh with your mates, you will be watched, every second of every day, marketed to, and your data (not just what you buy) will be sold to any company that wants to buy it.

What is even more galling is that they only recently announced this, AFTER the vast majority of people bought their tickets. Which i find disgraceful.

I'm truly amazed.

[thejimbola]

Do you own a credit/debit card? That probably has a chip too.

Who cares if they know that I buy a t-shirt and between 6 and 10 beers a day in the arena?

They can't track you every second, only when it is scanned. You don't even have to register it to your name if you top up when you are there.

Only the chronically paranoid need worry!

[devilman]

Good. They'll realise which demographics actually keep them afloat and give them the music they like in the the future. Can't get excited about the rest of it. If you carry a phone then "they" already know far more about you than a festival RFID will tell.

[thejimbola]

Good. They'll realise which demographics actually keep them afloat and give them the music they like in the the future. Can't get excited about the rest of it. If you carry a phone then "they" already know far more about you than a festival RFID will tell.

They will realise that they need to keep the ale bar stocked when I am in the arena!

[eFestivals]

Do you own a credit/debit card? That probably has a chip too.

Who cares if they know that I buy a t-shirt and between 6 and 10 beers a day in the arena?

They can't track you every second, only when it is scanned. You don't even have to register it to your name if you top up when you are there.

Only the chronically paranoid need worry!

A credit/debit card is at your own discression for it's use. The Download cashless payment system is not.

And it's more than the chronically paranoid who need to worry, because everyone will be affected by the hassle of having to put money onto the system - and hassle to get any money back if you want to keep your anonymity (is that even possible to do when you need refunding? I've no idea).

Edited June 3, 2015 by eFestivals

[t8yman]

Great, my bank know that my wallet is on top of the microwave in the kitchen. where it lives for 99% of the time.

Yes, my phone does track me, but I choose that. I can not have a phone. I cannot use cash at download.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument

if it has the facility to be anonymous, then I will cease to argue, and accept it as fairly OK

but picture the scenario. the festival organisers gather data on everyone, particularly "spend per hour", then target those higher up the scale with "presale codes" for an event that is likely to sell out, and you didnt fall into the higher band, so when you go to buy your ticket, they are sold out. fair eh?

[eFestivals]

Good. They'll realise which demographics actually keep them afloat and give them the music they like in the the future. Can't get excited about the rest of it. If you carry a phone then "they" already know far more about you than a festival RFID will tell.

that's not true.

A phone can be used to track your movements, it doesn't track the interactions you make as you make those movements.

And as for "which demographics", that will only drag things in the mainstream direction if they go that deep into analysing the data they have.

[eFestivals]

if it has the facility to be anonymous, then I will cease to argue, and accept it as fairly OK

It does - for putting money on. Whether that's the same for getting any unspent money back again, i'm not sure.

But WHY is it necessary??

It's no advantage to the customer. It's actually extra hassle for the customer.

(I accept that there's some exceptional situations where it might be more useful than what we already have, but those exceptions do not justify it).

In a legal sense I'm pretty sure that Download have fucked this up, as it was a condition added after the sale had been made for most people - and legal tender (cash) has rights in law as an always-acceptable means of payment. I doubt anyone will pursue the various consumer and criminal law angles with Download, but it would be interesting to see how it panned out if someone did.

Edited June 3, 2015 by eFestivals

[t8yman]

It also puts absolute power in the hands of the organisers with regards to the traders on site, previously it is none of their business how much a trader makes, as long as they pay their ground rent, now the organisers can take the higher grossing stalls and charge a % age, and leave the lower grossing ones with almost crippling ground rent.

it will likely push prices up. They are not doing this to help you.

the only party that benefits is LiveNation.

[t8yman]

i keep posting at pretty much exactly the same time as you Neil. oops, covered some similar points there.

[thejimbola]

A credit/debit card is at your own discression for it's use. The Download cashless payment system is not.

And it's more than the chronically paranoid who need to worry, because everyone will be affected by the hassle of having to put money onto the system - and hassle to get any money back if you want to keep your anonymity (is that even possible to do when you need refunding? I've no idea).

The hassle is no different to the hassle of buying beer tokens when the arena opens on the Friday. At least you can top up beforehand with the dog tags.

Edited June 3, 2015 by thejimbola

[thejimbola]

It also puts absolute power in the hands of the organisers with regards to the traders on site, previously it is none of their business how much a trader makes, as long as they pay their ground rent, now the organisers can take the higher grossing stalls and charge a % age, and leave the lower grossing ones with almost crippling ground rent.

it will likely push prices up. They are not doing this to help you.

the only party that benefits is LiveNation.

Actually Download put price caps on all common items sold e.g. a bottle of water and this will stop dodgy stalls from overcharging customers, which has happened previously.

[t8yman]

I have read more on the matter, and it appears your movements will not be traceable (this year). But mark my words it will be coming.

And as previously mentioned, you can be anonymous, but you will not be able to obtain your unspent balance.

http://downloadfestival.co.uk/info?c=11

[eFestivals]

Actually Download put price caps on all common items sold e.g. a bottle of water and this will stop dodgy stalls from overcharging customers, which has happened previously.

the "price cap" thing is a joke, really.

The prices are only so high in the first place because of the very high prices those traders are charged for their pitch.

[devilman]

that's not true.

A phone can be used to track your movements, it doesn't track the interactions you make as you make those movements.

And as for "which demographics", that will only drag things in the mainstream direction if they go that deep into analysing the data they have.

Everything you do on your phone can be intercepted and tracked. All they will learn about me from RFID is that I am a piss head with a shit diet. I would like to say that that isn't true in the real world but it is at weekends at least.

As far as pushing things mainstream goes I strongly disagree. It's the oldies with the disposable cash that spend the most on beer and food if not merch. Oldies are less likely to be listening to the shite that R1 churns out these days. I don't want to cover old ground but it's the reason why T has struggled since 2012 when they effectively shit canned rock music because the demographic supposedly didn't like it. So now they have a much smaller audience that wants Calvin Harris on repeat, sneak drink and drugs in so they don't buy any and live on breakfast bars and crisps for the weekend.

I have read more on the matter, and it appears your movements will not be traceable (this year). But mark my words it will be coming.

And as previously mentioned, you can be anonymous, but you will not be able to obtain your unspent balance.

http://downloadfestival.co.uk/info?c=11

Scanning your movements at a festival is a bad thing how? At the end of the day, if you don't want to be tracked don't go or take the thing off. As far as the anonymous cash payment thing goes, it's no different to tokens in the past. You buy too many then tough.

I'm not an advocate for this system, I was happy enough before and I can see that we don't really benefit at all. The organisers will. If they can see that I am a regular festival goer and not a tout when it comes to buying tickets in future I see that as a good thing. If they also give me preferential treatment because I spend shit loads when I'm there than how is that different from companies looking after their best customers like they used to do in the old days?

I'm happy to give this a trial. The plus side is the wifi availability and therefore also improved mobile availability. I really can't be arsed walking round the site looking for top up points so I'm happy to register, preload and take the risk they'll find out how many pints I buy in a weekend. Good job they can't monitor what I drink in the village pub crawl and campsite then huh?

Edited June 3, 2015 by devilman

[theramm]

Lots of people did voice their concerns on the official forum but a handful of other posters bizarrely shouted down any of these opinions (valid or not) until people just stopped complaining as it wasn’t worth getting swarmed on.

[luckysalt]

There was plenty PLENTY of moaning on the official site.

They left it so late in the day so no matter how much moaning was done they would say that there's nothing they could do about it because its too late to change things. They knew what they wanted to do, they planned it like this. Its a load of shit.

This year seems the worst year for Download, they've lost a lot of sponsors, they've lost their 3rd stage sponsor, they've lost their 4th stage sponsor, they've lost their 5th stage sponsor which has had such an effect they've gotten rid of a 5th stage altogether.

Those sponsors haven't been replaced, one of which was an energy drink and they couldn't do a deal with a new one, so much so that they said ALL energy drinks would be banned from being sold onsite as a big fuck you to the industry, the reason being the energy drinks companies saying they don't need to pay to be sponsor as they already sell enough to the market, so live nation said well we won't stock any energy drinks unless you be a sponsor.

It backfired, it got public, the public kicked off and they've backed down and allowed an energy to be sold after all.

There's a lot that goes on in terms of making Live Nation enough money not with the consumer in mind, HOWEVER im not so stupid that without these sponsors Live Nation won't have as much money to put the festival on as it is, things will have to give, like the campsite village has gotten smaller each year with attractions, there hasn't been a big outside DJ setup for years, it used to be a staple part of the village.

They will need to make money from new things within the festival, I assume this is part of it. Im not gunna bend over and let Live Nation bum me, but I want Download to continue as it is. So some things you just have to roll with.

[eFestivals]

Everything you do on your phone can be intercepted and tracked.

yep, where you go, but not what you interact with.

These wristbands add the bit that's missing.

As far as pushing things mainstream goes I strongly disagree.

why? Where do you think the numbers are? In the niche and not in the mainstream?

Scanning your movements at a festival is a bad thing how?

recording everyone's phone calls is a bad thing how?

You can come up with excellent justifications for both, but they're ignoring the other side. Just because you can do something is not default justification to do it.

It should be down to any individual whether they're tracked or recorded, shouldn't it?

Or are you advocating a big brother society?

[t8yman]

There was plenty PLENTY of moaning on the official site.

They left it so late in the day so no matter how much moaning was done they would say that there's nothing they could do about it because its too late to change things. They knew what they wanted to do, they planned it like this. Its a load of shit.

This year seems the worst year for Download, they've lost a lot of sponsors, they've lost their 3rd stage sponsor, they've lost their 4th stage sponsor, they've lost their 5th stage sponsor which has had such an effect they've gotten rid of a 5th stage altogether.

Those sponsors haven't been replaced, one of which was an energy drink and they couldn't do a deal with a new one, so much so that they said ALL energy drinks would be banned from being sold onsite as a big fuck you to the industry, the reason being the energy drinks companies saying they don't need to pay to be sponsor as they already sell enough to the market, so live nation said well we won't stock any energy drinks unless you be a sponsor.

It backfired, it got public, the public kicked off and they've backed down and allowed an energy to be sold after all.

There's a lot that goes on in terms of making Live Nation enough money not with the consumer in mind, HOWEVER im not so stupid that without these sponsors Live Nation won't have as much money to put the festival on as it is, things will have to give, like the campsite village has gotten smaller each year with attractions, there hasn't been a big outside DJ setup for years, it used to be a staple part of the village.

They will need to make money from new things within the festival, I assume this is part of it. Im not gunna bend over and let Live Nation bum me, but I want Download to continue as it is. So some things you just have to roll with.

glad to hear it, but I'm sure as theramm said above, any dissenting voices will have been swarmed by the fanbots, and the "nothing to hide - nothing to fear" brigade.

you raised some interesting stuff in your post, most of which I wasnt aware of. especially the sponsor stuff.

I think its mega low that LN decided to announce it so late, I'm sure as you said it will have been done this way intentionally. I really hope loads of people use it unregistered, so their data is worthless, but sadly - I feel that most people will just blindly walk into oppression.

I got an email from livenation this morning asking me why I hadnt bought a ticket yet, and asking me to fill in a survey for a £20 discount on a weekend ticket. I gladly filled in the survey and mentioned cashless as my reason for not attending in every answer I possibly could. then when my discount code came up, i just closed the browser.

[theramm]

They've essentially created a solution to a problem that didn't exist for the vast, vast majority of customers. Even the email that came through announcing cashless had 'We've removed the faff of using cash' as the headline. Most people can use money without getting confused quite easily. If you do find issue then you've probably got bigger things to worry about than anything festival related.

Anyone who truly believes that LN have done this to benefit the customer can PM me, I've got some magic beans for sale & I'm pretty sure you'll be my perfect customer.

Edit – The people jumping on anyone voicing a contrary opinion was truly horrible. Even 1 disabled customer said that it wasn’t feasible for him to go & get his own food and drink, in the past his mate would take the cash from him & go and fetch him a pint & burger. Just this little thing felt to him like another bit of his independence was lost as now he’d either have keep a tab of what his friend was spending on his tag on his behalf or give him the cash, his mate would then queue for a top-up machine, add the credit & then go and buy his food. Adding more time & hassle to the procedure. People still jumped on his calling him stupid.

The official forums are usually really good & supportive but this brought out the very worst in people. Sad.

Edited June 3, 2015 by theramm

[Lumz]

It should be down to any individual whether they're tracked or recorded, shouldn't it?

Is the choice not in whether the individual attends the festival or not?

t8yman has said he is not attending the festival due to the cashless system, that is his choice and one he is free to make. LN aren't going to miss the very few that aren't going to attend due to this (it's not a personal dig by the way).

The only benefit to me is that I can top-up at home and simply go to a bar, swipe my wrist and grab a pint, with minimal effort and smaller queues. Not a great benefit and I know the LN are getting a much better deal than the consumer, but it is LN's festival that I'm attending, so they kinda make the rules and I etiher stick to them and attend, or simply don't.

[t8yman]

I didn't say I wasn't attending did I?

Me and a few mates will go on the saturday if the weather is good, I will do my best to make sure the organisers know I am not happy about it, nor do I agree with it. we may well share one between all of us, we may well bring in our own drink and not spend a penny in there in protest.

[Lumz]

I didn't say I wasn't attending did I?

I gladly filled in the survey and mentioned cashless as my reason for not attending in every answer I possibly could.

[devilman]

yep, where you go, but not what you interact with.

These wristbands add the bit that's missing.

why? Where do you think the numbers are? In the niche and not in the mainstream?

recording everyone's phone calls is a bad thing how?

You can come up with excellent justifications for both, but they're ignoring the other side. Just because you can do something is not default justification to do it.

It should be down to any individual whether they're tracked or recorded, shouldn't it?

Or are you advocating a big brother society?

Firstly, if you really believe that your phone interactions can't be tracked then you have your head in the sand. I have erm friends at work who could show you a thing or two that would make you pit your shants.

Just because something isn't mainstream, it doesn't mean there isn't a market for it. Download isn't a mainstream festival, if it goes that way it loses its core audience and puts itself in competition with everyotherfuckingshiteblandfestival and there are only so many tone deaf nursery rhyme appreciating fuckwits to go round.

When you are at a festival they are responsible for your well being. Knowing how ,many people are in a location when the shit hits the fan is sensible. Just like when you get on an aeroplane or go to a cinema. I have have no advocacy for a big brother state, although you pretty much live in one already, but I really have no objection to a company whose premises I am visiting knowing where I am whilst on their premises. Not that they would be really able to do that effectively on a festival site.

[t8yman]

that was what I told them!

edited to say, uh - the quoting thing hasnt worked properly, but you get my drift!

Edited June 3, 2015 by t8yman