Cashless? I'm stunned at the apathy.

[eFestivals]

Firstly, if you really believe that your phone interactions can't be tracked then you have your head in the sand. I have erm friends at work who could show you a thing or two that would make you pit your shants.

what aren't you getting?

I've not said phone interactions can't be tracked. I've said what you interact with when you're with your phone can't be tracked via your phone.

You know.... your phone can tell someone you went to a shop (tho not really, it can't be tracked that good) but it cannot know what you did in that shop.

[eFestivals]

When you are at a festival they are responsible for your well being. Knowing how ,many people are in a location when the shit hits the fan is sensible. Just like when you get on an aeroplane or go to a cinema. I have have no advocacy for a big brother state, although you pretty much live in one already, but I really have no objection to a company whose premises I am visiting knowing where I am whilst on their premises. Not that they would be really able to do that effectively on a festival site.

none of this has been necessary before now, so why is is it necessary now?

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. Or do you like to punch yourself in the face?

[devilman]

none of this has been necessary before now, so why is is it necessary now?

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. Or do you like to punch yourself in the face?

So take the stage that collapsed in America crushing a few people. If the technology was available to know how many people were affected and how to get help to them immediately but wasn't used for fear of upsetting a few conspiracy theorists, how bad would the backlash be then? Or teenage girl gets wasted and lost. Parents want to know where she is. Is she getting raped in a tent, left the site? Or sat having a kip at the top of the field? if the technology exists and the disaster scenario could be averted then surely it's justified? Just playing devil's advocate and I don't really care one way or another. It'll be interesting to see what the aftermath is.

If you come into my hypothetical shop and connect to my hypothetical wifi I could tell exactly what you are connecting to and in a lot of cases could have some of your passwords before long, A mobile network is just the same and there are far cleverer people than me able to access it. RFID at a festival tells the organisers where you are on THEIR site (possibly, if implemented with loads more infrastructure) and what you buy out of the very limited food, drink and merch available. It's hardly grounds to build up a profile that could be used for ID theft,

[bazthorpe]

Paranoid much? If you look at the t's and c's you will see that the rfid data is not being used to track your every move nor is it being sold off to third parties, calm down you muppets

[calum mac]

At least you dont need to worry about losing your money or dropping your beer tokens when drunk ... I think it's a good idea and we need to move with the times .... Some people just hate change

[eFestivals]

Paranoid much?

It's not about paranoia, it's about choice.

And while the supporters are trotting out 'paranoid', just have a look at the extreme situation that devilman has just invented to give the system some justification.

I see you lot go with the "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear line" which the govt likes to trot out to justify big brother spying on us, but just as with Download, we're paying others to spy on us when we know they've no need to spy on us and where it's yet to obtain a single result that hasn't already been flagged up via more traditional methods.

In the last 20 years our laws have changed from "presumed innocent" to "presumed guilty", the police have been intervening when politicians have been rightly criticised, our first law to ban everything unless the govt says different is about to come into force, and our MP's lie about the extent of the surveillance they authorise .... and you think it's safe to give therm ever-more control over our every action.

With systems like this, you're giving others authority over your ability to simple and normal things like spend money (the likes of this festival system is just the start, look at what Denmark is now up to).

First they came for the communists... etc, etc, etc,

If you happily give away control over your life, what's your life really worth? Answers on a postcard from Download after the festival, cos they'll be able to tell you.

Edited June 3, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

At least you dont need to worry about losing your money or dropping your beer tokens when drunk ... I think it's a good idea and we need to move with the times .... Some people just hate change

Or alternatively, some people need others to wipe their arses for them.

Or alternatively, some people think beyond their self.

[devilman]

Paranoid over reaction much! No choice has been taken away from me. If I don't like I don't go. Letting a company know how many burgers pints and noodles I buy is hardly surrendering my freedom.

[theramm]

Paranoid over reaction much! No choice has been taken away from me. If I don't like I don't go. Letting a company know how many burgers pints and noodles I buy is hardly surrendering my freedom.

Obviously enough people wouldn't have gone if they knew this would be imposed on them, hence why LN chose to wait until the majority of tickets were sold before telling people.

Are you completely oblivious to the reaction to this online? It hasn't been positive.

[devilman]

Obviously enough people wouldn't have gone if they knew this would be imposed on them, hence why LN chose to wait until the majority of tickets were sold before telling people.

Are you completely oblivious to the reaction to this online? It hasn't been positive.

I did look at the start and it seemed pretty neutral but I don't go on those forums much. IF everyone is so up in arms they won't go next year will they? This has gone from barely registering on my interestometer to can't wait to see the effect on attitudes next year!

[Moey]

I think it would have been interesting to see how many tickets they would have shifted if they announced cashless up front. Also, next year's ticket sales would be a good indicator to people's reactions of it.

I already had my ticket, so I had no choice. Which is shit. Would it stop me going? No.

I'm a big fan of cashless payments and NFC technology.

Whether they track it or not (and, you can pay for all sorts via your phone these days, so they deffo know your trends), I don't like it because it means I will have to go to the bar, rather than chuck my mate a token for my pint. My understanding is that it's part of the wristband, which you can't take off. Also, the fact that you can't split a round if you don't have enough credit is pretty inflexible.

Imagine though, if the tags don't work. There will be a fucking riot.

[calum mac]

Or alternatively, some people need others to wipe their arses for them.

Or alternatively, some people think beyond their self.

Or alternatively you never use a debit card

Edited June 3, 2015 by calum mac

[eFestivals]

Paranoid over reaction much! No choice has been taken away from me.

well, yes it has.

You now cannot choose to pay with cash at Download.

You might not see that as a big thing, that's your choice as well. As is the choice of people with my views, who wouldn't go to a festival which had a system like this.

You're saying it'll be useful for Download to help get the punters in in the future, but it's also going to have the opposite effect I guarantee.

If I don't like I don't go. Letting a company know how many burgers pints and noodles I buy is hardly surrendering my freedom.

It's the thin end of the wedge.

And still completely unnecessary.

It's only there to fleece you better, and you're paying for them to be able to do that.

[eFestivals]

Imagine though, if the tags don't work. There will be a fucking riot.

I had a convo with one of the senior staff at Glasto over a decade ago, about a similar but different system for festival entry.

They had absolutely no interest in it, because of the possibility of it not working. No matter what guarantees any company might give about up-time, there will be downtime for someone at some point, which means having an alternative management plan in place with all the extra hassle that causes (as well as all of the related unknowns such as crowd reactions that have to be dealt with).

Meanwhile, a paper system - tickets, or money - is infallible on the 'will it keep working?' front.

Edited June 3, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Or alternatively you never use a debit card

I do, but I'm also not scared of cash.

The point is: it's my choice when to use either, and fully within my control.

Edited June 3, 2015 by eFestivals

[t8yman]

It's interesting that the first UK festival to implement this totalitarian system is Download, a heavy metal festival, with a metal crowd, a crowd that prides itself on being "different" and "alternative" and "renegade" in the words of one Zack De La Rocha - fuck you I won't do what you tell me.

To - yes Mr Corporation, where do I queue to have my freedom of choice removed.

Nice one metalheads!

[eFestivals]

It's interesting that the first UK festival to implement this totalitarian system is Download, a heavy metal festival, with a metal crowd, a crowd that prides itself on being "different" and "alternative" and "renegade" in the words of one Zack De La Rocha - fuck you I won't do what you tell me.

To - yes Mr Corporation, where do I queue to have my freedom of choice removed.

Nice one metalheads!

Nicely noticed.

It's hardly anything alternative to be the man's biggest sop.

[gary1979666]

It's an interesting one, but I fall on the *shrug* side of the arguement. I give away much more data in my weekly run to Tesco than they could ever gather at a festival. Each week, they get what I buy, but also the order I buy it (as I use the scan as you shop thing) and on top of that, Tesco know where else I shop, as have a Tesco credit card - yeah, it'll mean they can target marketing at me, but I'd much rather have 50p off something I might want than a random guess.

I guess most festivals don't give much choice around payments anyway, as not normally card payments (except merch if it's working) - so it's cash cash cash. So this is just giving a different limited choice. I'd rather a wristband than a wallet of cash.

[devilman]

well, yes it has.

You now cannot choose to pay with cash at Download.

You might not see that as a big thing, that's your choice as well. As is the choice of people with my views, who wouldn't go to a festival which had a system like this.

You're saying it'll be useful for Download to help get the punters in in the future, but it's also going to have the opposite effect I guarantee.

It's the thin end of the wedge.

And still completely unnecessary.

It's only there to fleece you better, and you're paying for them to be able to do that.

I couldn't chose to pay with paypal previously at a festival. No real choice has been removed now with this system it's just different. You choose to accept a company's terms of sale or not. If you do then you generally have to abide by them or leave. There have always been T&Cs, written on either your ticket or online at purchase, many of which could be construed as the removal of choice. It's just now people fear the new system. Unless there is a disastrous power cut or something I'll wager that most people will warm to it. Just look at online shopping. It was the end of days initially and people would never use it, yet now the high streets die. There is, was and always will be only one choice, go or not go. If you do go, you agree to "their" terms and whether you pay with cash or sexual favours they still have you over a barrel and extort money out of you in ways you wouldn't ordinarily agree to; Inflated prices, limited choice, where you can and can't take food and drink etc etc.

I didn't mean that this system will get punters in the future, in fact I agree that it will scare some away initially. What I meant was that they will be able to see which kinds of people are the most valuable to them and target them in the future with line ups etc One thing is for sure, it won't just be Download analysing the results. You'll probably see that as bad but if it means that the secondary spend of festival goers can influence future line ups I'm not opposed to that.

In the greater sceme of things, how money gets out of my account into Livenations's account doesn't really bother me. As long as they put on a good show and I have a good time. I aim to do just that and I'm getting excited. This time next week Ill be there or thereabouts

[eFestivals]

I couldn't chose to pay with paypal previously at a festival. No real choice has been removed now with this system it's just different. You choose to accept a company's terms of sale or not. If you do then you generally have to abide by them or leave.

Yep, that's all fine in principle, but that's not what they've done here. As a condition added (for most folks) after the ticket sale, legal tender is no longer legal.

As i've already mentioned, that's got to be breaking something in either consumer or criminal law, and it would be interesting to see it tested (tho i doubt it will be). I very much hope they'll be giving full refunds to anyone who does not want to subject themselves to this later-added condition.

I didn't mean that this system will get punters in the future, in fact I agree that it will scare some away initially. What I meant was that they will be able to see which kinds of people are the most valuable to them and target them in the future with line ups etc One thing is for sure, it won't just be Download analysing the results. You'll probably see that as bad but if it means that the secondary spend of festival goers can influence future line ups I'm not opposed to that.

I got what you meant.

And as i pointed out, it will lead to the mainstreaming of everything, because that's where the biggest numbers are.

In the greater sceme of things, how money gets out of my account into Livenations's account doesn't really bother me. As long as they put on a good show and I have a good time. I aim to do just that and I'm getting excited. This time next week Ill be there or thereabouts

Apathy it is then. The OP nailed it.

It's about control, and you're happy to be controlled.

One day perhaps you won't be, and then it's too late.

[Red Day]

Or alternatively, some people need others to wipe their arses for them.

Or alternatively, some people think beyond their self.

If wristband pays for someone to do that I'm all for it

[t8yman]

Go back to bed, America. Your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed, America. Your government is in control again. Here. Here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up. Go back to bed, America. Here is American Gladiators. Here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom. Here you go, America! You are free to do what we tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!

Bill Hicks

[devilman]

Yep, that's all fine in principle, but that's not what they've done here. As a condition added (for most folks) after the ticket sale, legal tender is no longer legal.

As i've already mentioned, that's got to be breaking something in either consumer or criminal law, and it would be interesting to see it tested (tho i doubt it will be). I very much hope they'll be giving full refunds to anyone who does not want to subject themselves to this later-added condition.

I got what you meant.

And as i pointed out, it will lead to the mainstreaming of everything, because that's where the biggest numbers are.

Apathy it is then. The OP nailed it.

It's about control, and you're happy to be controlled.

One day perhaps you won't be, and then it's too late.

I'll give you the legal tender after the sale point. I can see that people might not be happy and that they should be entitled to a full refund.

I don't get the control thing. Nobody is making me go. As I said before - paranoid over reaction much!

[t8yman]

I'll give you the legal tender after the sale point. I can see that people might not be happy and that they should be entitled to a full refund.

I don't get the control thing. Nobody is making me go. As I said before - paranoid over reaction much!

I Honestly don't understand why you are defending them. It's not about anybody making you go, it's about something you love, being changed needlessly, to benefit the corporation that owns it, at the expense of your human right to freedom from intrusion. You are supposed to be a free man. Defend your right to be free, challenge every attempt to reduce that freedom - in however small a way.

[devilman]

I'm not defending it, I'm just not arsed about it. It doesn't affect me one way or the other. They've been scanning my ticket in and out of festivals for years. It's not really any different except that now they'll know what food i eat and how many pints I have. I really don't care. If it helps them plan better then good. If not then whoopie doo. Yes I love Download but it's not the only festival. If this pisses off enough people to give Sonisphere grounds to run again next year then....... winner winner chicken dinner.

If you want freedom then come buy a croft up here with no electricity or utilities. That's probably as close as it gets in this country and even then you'll have to jump through some fucker's hoops.

It amuses me that to get to Download your vehicle will have had its registration recognised by monitoring cameras several hundred times. Your face will have been recognised up to 300 times a square mile in some parts of the country. Your phone will give away your position to 3m and your cards will reveal what you have bought, or withdrawn in the lead up and yet you worry about Livenation knowing which food stalls you use. It's crazy.