Cashless? I'm stunned at the apathy.

[devilman]

Fuck me, if that classes as your attempt at logical comparison you've got big problems.

Well you started it!

[5co77ie]

You wouldn't be attending it whether this system was in place or not

I would as it happens if they ever had a line-up that excited me I attended Monsters Of Rock and Sonispheres

This ship sailed a long time ago. Glasto is probably the only major festival with aspects left that aren't out and out commercialism.

The only major? What makes a festival a major? Are BoomTown, Green Man, Shambala, Beat-Herder, Beautiful Days, Y-Not, Kendal Calling etc all minor players? These are not overtly commercial festivals . You're saying major commercial festivals are major commercial festivals, yes point well made, but Glastonbury is the biggest non-commercial, you make sense but it means nothing.

Neil is dead right the big festival with stages and beer and burgers in a field is dying on it's arse. The exception being right of passage festivals unless you make a festival a festival experience these days with all the other (non-commercial) attractions it's likely to die a death in 5 years.

Edited June 5, 2015 by 5co77ie

[rivalschools.price]

Lets just bring this up again, because no-one addressed it earlier. Lets say they introduce GPS tracking with it next year, they then notice that the people who spend all day on the barrier spend nothing whatsoever at the bar (obviously). so some bright spark at a meeting says - how do we stop this? and they come up with the idea of having a "gold circle". The gold circle is open to VIP campers, and those with the 25% highest spend per hour from the previous year (because those people hold the most value for LN) and the people who really love the bands cant get anywhere near the barrier.

none of that is beyond the realms of possibility with this system

would you care then?

If you are asking me whether I agree with segregation at festivals then the answer is no.

However, it is possible to agree with cashless system but not agree with segregation.

So, if your hypothetical situation arose, then my stance would be that I don't agree with using the wristbands to segregate people, but am happy to pay for my beer and burgers with it.

on a separate note, why would they want their biggest bar spenders down the front at the barrier? Surely they wouldn't be as naive to expect the people who used to stand at the barrier all day with bottle of water to suddenly start slurping a dozen pints at the bar because they aren't at the front.

[devilman]

hey devilman, i'm rather amused that you're happy for festivals to go the way you were so strongly against once upon a time not very long ago.

What happened to change your mind?

I haven't. I don't understand your angle here. I stopped going to T because they stripped the diversity and concentrated on pop. All the other stuff that contributed to the festival experience but didn't make money was ripped out. Old fuckers were no longer catered for with their old fashioned music genres. I argued then, as now, that they would struggle as a result. The yearly return customers didn't return. I maintain I am right. You have backed this up inadvertently.

People like me haven't stopped going to festivals however. I'm doing 6 this year. Download will be the 2nd. Only 1 will be a major mainstream festival. The point I was trying to make with the cashless system, that you refuse to hear above your paranoia, is that now the festivals will have irrefutable evidence that the older less trendy festival goers are the ones with more cash to spend. I spend way more than the ticket price at a festival. When LN and DF etc realise that there are a lot of people who want to spend money at a festival but don't go because the music and experience is not what they want now, they will try and get them back. Surely this is a good thing.

If say a mainstream festival such as T decided to book a headline band such as SOAD. Or RATM again. I reckon that would get 10k extra people going especially if they had a few more rock bands on the lineup somewhere.

10k tickets is 2m. But, the secondary spend is also up there if the old fuckers are like me.

Compare that to the 50k teenagers they have struggled to attract = 10m plus the 2 burgers and six drinks they'll buy all weekend = 1.9m

So for the price of a decent headliner and a few smaller bands you make as much from the fogeys as you do from all the kids.

All very simplified but my experience bears it out.

Most of the smaller festivals I go to sell out before a single act is announced. Why? Because they have repeat customers who just know the organisers will get them bands they like. Most of the small festivals have diversity. Most of them have a much older crowd than the mainstreams.

You see cashless as a commercial move and you are right, it is, but it's one that will not detract from the festival experience for me and so I really don't care about having to use it. It's no worse than tokens. If it means they can see how valuable people like me are to them then good. if they decide we're not worth it and put CalvinfuckingHarris on repeat because metal fans aren't where the cash is at then my cash will go to another festival. It's no big deal. I'm thinking of doing a couple of stateside festivals next year anyways, if they all get shite here maybe that's the future.

[eFestivals]

I haven't. I don't understand your angle here. I stopped going to T because they stripped the diversity and concentrated on pop. .

My angle here is that you've voiced your support for Download doing the same thing.

The only thing looking at the data from Download attendees will tell them is that the big numbers are in the middle ground and not at the extremes.

[eFestivals]

If say a mainstream festival such as T decided to book a headline band such as SOAD. Or RATM again. I reckon that would get 10k extra people going especially if they had a few more rock bands on the lineup somewhere.

PMSL

Have you ever stopped to wonder why Sonisphere can't sustain itself in the UK....?

[devilman]

My angle here is that you've voiced your support for Download doing the same thing.

The only thing looking at the data from Download attendees will tell them is that the big numbers are in the middle ground and not at the extremes.

WTF???? I have done nothing of the sort. Do you actually read anything?

download is a large niche festival. You say that going cashless will force it more mainstream. I disagree and wouldn't welcome that anyway.

The big numbers may be at teh middle but if you exclude the extremes and concentrate on those middle numbers then you end up with 50k people when you used to get 85k. See where I'm going with that?

[t8yman]

If you are asking me whether I agree with segregation at festivals then the answer is no.

However, it is possible to agree with cashless system but not agree with segregation.

So, if your hypothetical situation arose, then my stance would be that I don't agree with using the wristbands to segregate people, but am happy to pay for my beer and burgers with it.

on a separate note, why would they want their biggest bar spenders down the front at the barrier? Surely they wouldn't be as naive to expect the people who used to stand at the barrier all day with bottle of water to suddenly start slurping a dozen pints at the bar because they aren't at the front.

Thin end of the wedge my friend, as I said - once people accept it as the norm, they will find new and exciting ways of manipulating/monetizing their customers using the technology available to them. "Premium" toilets anyone? "Fast track entry" anyone? £10 extra for each, or both for £18.50!!! woohoo, arent you lucky, whilst they make the other toilets basically hell holes with huge queues, so next year people will opt for the nicer toilets (especially the girls). Then the next year they might scrap the posh bogs and just decide to charge everyone £1 to use the toilets, which you will swipe to get entry, because there will be no-one to complain to, because every entry point will be a scanner by now, and all of the stewards are gone apart from the ones wandering around trying to look busy.

They don't want their biggest spenders down the front, they want the people who spend nothing to leave the barrier and go and consume, whilst the people with "gold circle" enabled on their wristbands can wander in and out down the front as they wish, because their chip allows them access, and there will be a new bar close to there just for those people, and the beer might well be 20p a pint more expensive, but served in slightly nicer plastic cups.

[devilman]

PMSL

Have you ever stopped to wonder why Sonisphere can't sustain itself in the UK....?

Yes. I have decided that southerners are fickle fuckers. Soni is a great festival. I would go even if Adam Lambert was there. Have you seen the speed in which SOAD can sell out an arena like wembley?

[t8yman]

WTF???? I have done nothing of the sort. Do you actually read anything?

download is a large niche festival. You say that going cashless will force it more mainstream. I disagree and wouldn't welcome that anyway.

The big numbers may be at teh middle but if you exclude the extremes and concentrate on those middle numbers then you end up with 50k people when you used to get 85k. See where I'm going with that?

why do you think bloodstock has gotten so popular? not because they are booking mainstream acts like download or sonisphere. people are getting sick of the mass market, corporate events and heading to smaller festies in their droves. those festies seem to being doing fairly OK, whilst the biggies like DL are looking for new ways to empty everyones pockets.

[devilman]

T8ty all this is possible without wristbands. I think you need to relax a bit. Maybe put on some nice 5FDP and have a cup of tea.

[t8yman]

T8ty all this is possible without wristbands. I think you need to relax a bit. Maybe put on some nice 5FDP and have a cup of tea.

Jesus are you trying to make me explode with rage man?!

Those 6th form lyrics could push me over the edge!

[eFestivals]

download is a large niche festival.

do you think you could take a moment to say that to the numptie in the Harvey Goldsmith thread? Thanks.

WTF???? I have done nothing of the sort. Do you actually read anything?

download is a large niche festival. You say that going cashless will force it more mainstream. I disagree and wouldn't welcome that anyway.

The big numbers may be at teh middle but if you exclude the extremes and concentrate on those middle numbers then you end up with 50k people when you used to get 85k. See where I'm going with that?

It might well pan out as you say here, yup. That's precisely the point I've been arguing about the dangers of using the demographics.

Which is somewhat different to what you said before....

Good. They'll realise which demographics actually keep them afloat and give them the music they like in the the future.

What demographics get to tell you is where the big numbers are.

They can't tell you the niches - that gives an overall attraction to make the whole package that people will buy into - but which don't show up in the numbers as having that effect.

[eFestivals]

Yes. I have decided that southerners are fickle fuckers. Soni is a great festival. I would go even if Adam Lambert was there. Have you seen the speed in which SOAD can sell out an arena like wembley?

Why do so many Scots find a word to get out of what they're really doing?

There simply isn't the market. That's all.

As for the likes of Rammstein, Metallica, and AC/DC, it's the same people buying the tickets every time they come around. It's taken them 30 years to build up toi an audience of that size.

[devilman]

Soz if you are misunderstanding me. The point I was trying to make is that LN is DF is whoever runs L/R. They will all have access to the results. I wasn't necessarily referring to the Download demographic but teh UK festival going public as a whole.

"Hey Geoff Ellis have you seen how much these old rockers at DL spend on food and beer? Fuck me we make a fortune out of them, how much do yours spend?" "Erm, we fucked them off a few years ago cos we thought they weren't bringing anything to the festival. Look on the bright side though, we've got Calvin Harris again. If we get extra security staff and conduct extra searches we can stop people bringing in their own bottled water and possibly sell them some"

[t8yman]

Soz if you are misunderstanding me. The point I was trying to make is that LN is DF is whoever runs L/R. They will all have access to the results. I wasn't necessarily referring to the Download demographic but teh UK festival going public as a whole.

"Hey Geoff Ellis have you seen how much these old rockers at DL spend on food and beer? Fuck me we make a fortune out of them, how much do yours spend?" "Erm, we fucked them off a few years ago cos we thought they weren't bringing anything to the festival. Look on the bright side though, we've got Calvin Harris again. If we get extra security staff and conduct extra searches we can stop people bringing in their own bottled water and possibly sell them some"

so then reading put on metallica, foos and slipknot, and download gets them crooked vultures, velvet revolver and def leppard!

[devilman]

Why do so many Scots find a word to get out of what they're really doing?

There simply isn't the market. That's all.

As for the likes of Rammstein, Metallica, and AC/DC, it's the same people buying the tickets every time they come around. It's taken them 30 years to build up toi an audience of that size.

I disagree with the market thing. There is less profit maybe but isn't that what you and Scottie are alluding to? Stripping back to music beer and burgers for maximum profit is turning fans away?

I disagree also with the "same people" comment. I found the Soni and Download crowds to be quite different although there is obviously some overlap.

[devilman]

so then reading put on metallica, foos and slipknot, and download gets them crooked vultures, velvet revolver and def leppard!

I'm off to Leeds in that case. I don't get your point.

[tyranicide]

Personally I don't have a problem with the cashless system, but it definitely shouldn't be compolsory

[5co77ie]

Can I just ask - why have their own cashless system when cashless is now available on a public system using cards or phones?

[t8yman]

Can I just ask - why have their own cashless system when cashless is now available on a public system using cards or phones?

I'm guessing thats a rhetorical question scottie?

because its not solely about the cashless bit, the cashless bit is a means of delivery for future control of their crowds. they sold it to the masses with "hey - download is cashless!! Yay!!!11!!11!!" after everyone had already bought their tickets, and then pointed out the "advantages" of not having to bring cash with you - because you can't get robbed. when really its only about the claimed 30% increase in spending, and being able to data mine.

[eFestivals]

I disagree also with the "same people" comment. I found the Soni and Download crowds to be quite different although there is obviously some overlap.

and yet the Download numbers have been down each year Soni has happened.

[thewayiam]

T8ty all this is possible without wristbands. I think you need to relax a bit. Maybe put on some nice 5FDP and have a cup of tea.

No one's ears need to be inflicted by that racket.

I'm off to Leeds in that case. I don't get your point.

I think his point is, take two of Downloads big headliners away in what you say yourself is a niche large festival, Download will then struggle a bit more. Add Sonisphere to that which wouldn't work as there would be nothing for them to book. Download haven't really done a great job this year and that's with Sonisphere off, but I still daresay Andy has booked as good as he could of.

[5co77ie]

The point I was trying to make is that LN is DF is whoever runs L/R.

Download is now operated by Melvin Benn who replaced John Probyn

[lightning1000]

No one's ears need to be inflicted by that racket.

I think his point is, take two of Downloads big headliners away in what you say yourself is a niche large festival, Download will then struggle a bit more. Add Sonisphere to that which wouldn't work as there would be nothing for them to book. Download haven't really done a great job this year and that's with Sonisphere off, but I still daresay Andy has booked as good as he could of.

I think they've done a good job but can't be sure as I don't know how many tickets they've sold. Do you know how ticket sales have gone compared to other years gazza? If you do please share.